I've seen enough, LeBron is the GOAT

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Cash Cam, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. likestohypeguy

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    That's the double edged sword with being that good in today's NBA. When you're that good he gets to call the shots, be his own GM and be/choose his own coach, but he's not good enough at those things (or at least not simultaneously doing all three) to be as successful as he could if he'd let a GM be a GM, be willing to be coached, and just focus on playing within a real system, that could work better than his teams do now without him for a minute.

    As successful as he's been, he'd have even more rings if he could have let go of trying to control everything as much as he has over his career.
     
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  2. RocketDream

    RocketDream Member

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    Three Hall of Fame talents plus a fantastic reserve definitely makes you a super team. Just because you only value scoring when it comes to building a franchise doesn't make them less great of players. Rodman was every bit as great a player as Kyrie Irving or Kevin Love, he just influenced the game in a different way. Irving (and especially Love) have been worthless in a lot of playoff games because if they can't get going on offense, they're liabilities. Rodman was a force in every game because he played amazing defense and almost always collected a ton of rebounds, including plenty of offensive ones. He was also an underrated passer in the triangle. Basically the only thing he didn't do was score.
     
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  3. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    So then the CAVS ARE a superteam?
     
  4. RocketDream

    RocketDream Member

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    Yes, though I'm less convinced than you apparently are that Irving and Love are Hall of Famers. Irving may make it based on his "clutch shot-making" rep, but Love's legacy is going to be in doubt considering how mediocre he's often been for the Cavaliers, especially in the Finals, despite the talent he showed in Minnesota.
     
  5. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Bosh was never a franchise player. He was very good and put up numbers, but I would put him in the kevin love level. He was better than love, but not franchise level.
     
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  6. hakeemthagreat

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    Huh? Toronto drafted him as a franchise player. His last year there he averaged 24pts/10 rebs on 51fg%. At the time he was arguably the best PF in the NBA. Kevin Love was a 26pt/12Reb guy. Let's not undersell these guys to make Lebron look like a hero
     
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  7. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    Rodman career playoff career as a Bull:

    Age: 34,35,36 years old
    Games played 58
    Games started 38
    32mpg

    5.4ppg 41.2% FG and 59.3 FT%
    11.3rpg
    1.8apg
    0.7spg
    0.4bpg
    1.8TOV
    11.1 PER

    Hardly dominant even when considering his rebounding numbers....by comparison, Kevin love in his playoff career with the CAVS scores more, assists more, shoots 3's, much better FT's and only 2 rebounds less which are from offensive rebounds which Tristan Thompson(Comparable to Horace Grant numbers) more than makes up for. I'd say a combination of prime Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson front line is stronger than having just 34-36 year old Rodman or Horace Grant at two different times on completely different teams.

    Even Pippen in the 2nd 3 peat had worthless games his average for the complete 2nd 3 peat is as follows: 17.6ppg on 40.8 FG% and 70 FT% with 7.4 rpg and 5apg and 2spg and just under a block per game and 2.5 TOV. 19 PER 50% TS%

    DWade's and Kyrie Irvings playoff stats with Lebron are better than Pippens entire 2nd 3 peat. Everything pretty much except rebounds which is expected.

    Now, I agree completely that when Rodman and Pippen are worthless for the Bulls on offense, they can still contribute in a huge way on defense, but that was in the 90s. This is 2017, it's all about putting up points.. In that regard, for today, Kyrie, Love, DWade, Bosh all have more value for a Lebron led team. Lebron wouldn't be winning anything today with Pippen and Rodman as his teammates.
     
  8. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    Not to mention Bosh's versatility on D. His defensive metrics were always above average even when the Raptors as a team were garbage.

    Kevin Love peaked at 15.2rpg and averaged 26ppg twice, but one of the more undervalued parts of his game was passing where he peaked at 4.4apg as a PF. Those were Charles Barkley and Chris Webber type of numbers. The Cavs turn him into Ryan Anderson and now Lebron fans can all yell about how Kevin Love is worthless and no better than Bill Wennington.
     
  9. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    And neither was Dennis Rodman. In fact, Kevin love, Kyrie irving, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh were all drafted by their teams with expectations to be franchise guys. Dennis Rodman wasn't. Horace Grant wasn't. Scottie Pippen wasn't. Even as a #5 pick, I mean..come on..the Sonics traded him for Olden Polynice. We tend to forget that Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson didn't join Jordan as HOF'ers.
     
  10. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Nah, for me Bosh was better than Kevin Love even, yeah I know Love is the better shooter and likely slightly better rebounder but apart from 3pt shooting I think Chris is easily the better low post scorer and athlete for me.

    Easily, he was a KG more like KG junior than lite. The suffocating Defense isn't there but his D was still very good.
     
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  11. Caesar

    Caesar Member

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    Watching the Celtics/Lakers 30 for 30 and i completely forgot that Magic demanded a trade from the Lakers in order for them to fire Paul Westhead. Even the funnest player ever was an asshole. All of these guys have huge egos, MJ and Kobe just don't care if you think they're assholes where Magic and LeBron really try hard to be likable in the media.
     
  12. el gnomo

    el gnomo Member

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    Bosh was amazing in PnR defense for the Heat. He wasn't a liability on that end like Love.

    Also made the rebound/assist to Ray Allen in the corner that saved that Finals.

    What he did have in common with Love is that they were both always the scapegoats anytime things didn't go right.
     
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  13. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Maybe he is not the GOAT but he is closest to the GOAT anyone not named MJ could be.

    Most versatile guy hands down. Just needed that killer instinct in the right moment.
     
  14. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    You tend to forget Jordan didn't join the Bulls as a HOF either.

    You keep saying you watched the 80s/90s but the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced Jordan was the only guy you watched, the way you disparage the rest of the Bulls is pretty ridiculous.

    You know why Rodman only averaged 5 pts? it's because Jordan took 38.3% usage rating, he was the OG ballhog before Kobe. Add to that Bulls play a half court style game and don't really push the pace and you see why Rodman would average low pts. This is something you should know if you actually watch Bulls games like you claim you have. However, what you're doing is purposely obfuscating the facts or pretending you don't know this **** just so you can prove your point about how Jordan played with scrubs despite the fact that the Bulls until last year were the best team ever in the history of the NBA:

    http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2014/11/14/kobe-bryant-usage-rating-michael-jordan-teammates/

    I guess getting picked 5th pick by the Bulls means Pippen wasn't expected to be a franchise guy? But Wade got 5th pick as well how come he is seen as a franchise guy but Pippen wasn't when they were picked same spot? I guess because Pippen wasn't a HOF as a rookie Bulls expected him to be trash? WTF. Bosh got picked all of 1 position higher than Pippen so 4rth pick means you're expected to be a franchise guy but 5th pick you aren't? Except, unless you're Dwade then you're still expected to be a franchise guy?
     
  15. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    I don't think Lebron is the GOAT but I also don't think MJ is the GOAT. MJ isn't even the best player of his era, that honor belongs to Hakeem. Hakeem was just unlucky he got drafted by Houston Rockets who traded their pick for Ralph Sampson who always got injured and his backcourt became crackheads. If Hakeem was drafted by the Bulls instead there is no doubt in my mind Hakeem would have more than 6 rings because he wouldn't quit basketball 3 times. OTH I doubt MJ on the Rockets would get even 1 ring playing with Sampson and crackhead brigade. Not only was MJ lucky that he had a HOF coach and front office behind him, he was also ridiculously lucky none of his rivals like Hakeem, Drexler, Stockton and Malone, Ewing etc. had a team with multiple stars behind him like he has. Stockton and Malone had 2 stars but that was it rest were 1 man bands.

    Now I know MJ stans would say luck is also part of skill but if that's the case then Russell should still be the GOAT because he was lucky enough to play in an era where other big men didn't know what they were doing.
     
  16. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    He would get at least one with the right trades, I mean MJ in Houston. I am sure of that.

    However, fair enough,Hakeem is the only guy I would put past MJ.

    Hakeem/MJ
    Lebron
    Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bill Russell
    Bird
     
  17. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    What kind of trades were available? C'mon dude it's not like Drexler and MJ had a great college career together.

    Plus, remember Hakeem would be on a Bulls team with Pippen and Rodman. How the F does anyone score against that frontcourt?
     
  18. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    If you think MJ would go to Houston, then the trades would be different. They would go after PFs, SFs and Cs instead of Drexler.
     
  19. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    If we was a franchise player why could he not consistently take his team to the playoffs in the east? Why could he not get out of the first round? A lot of people can put up stats, but to me franchise player should be able take a team to the playoffs. He missed the playoffs 2 years in a row before he joined the heat. Kevin love is not a franchise player either. If you are a GM and you want to build a team around Love or Bosh your team is not going to be that good.
     
  20. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    yeah but remember, Houston has no assets to do trades since they spent their top pick for a bust and their backcourt turned out to be crackheads.

    During their time big men went for a premium and wings weren't that highly valued so there's no way Houston can get big time big men to help MJ. OTH, Bulls would be sitting pretty with Pippen, Hakeem and Phil Jackson so tbh Hakeem would easily be the GOAT since he would get like at least 8 rings pretty easily.

    This is why I throw up in my mouth every time I encounter blind MJ worshippers, they always act like MJ played only 6 seasons and won a ring every year he was in the league. Most people have no idea what he is like as a player, they only think of him as perfection incarnate, like the ****ing Chuck Norris of bball. OTH, Hakeem always get criminally underrated and people always say he wouldn't have two rings if MJ hadn't retired. Even Barkley said that.
     
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