Ignoring midrange will kill us

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by OTMax, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    I hope some troll out there creates a User account called: Midrange Jumper

    Then we can ignore him.
     
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  2. RocketsFido

    RocketsFido Member

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    Not in the regular season but in the play-offs, when we play a strong defensive team like the Spurs, Warriors and maybe even OKC this year, we'll be in trouble if our 3s aren't hitting.
     
  3. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    This can be seen in the Spurs series. . . (which IMO was very much aided by the refs REFUSAL to call defensive 3 seconds on Pau all series
    nor his over the back and pushing down low)
    Pau says in the lane all game
    and they pressure the ball and 3 pt line

    Rocket River
     
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  4. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    ONE MORE THING: I think last year the Rockets passed up too many layups for 3's
    Nothing infuriated me more than to watch a pass from a guy that is literally doing a finger roll
    to a 3 pt brick

    Rocket River
     
  5. carib

    carib Member

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    There is no problem with Harden driving to the basket, if that is available for him that is what he should do. They recently implemented a Harden rule because of his above average crafty ability to draw shooting fouls. I am not saying we should not continue to drive or shoot threes. The argument I am making there is a lot of talk about how GSW is successful with just threes and lay ups. Some of the key GSW players will shoot a mid range shot, if the three or a lay up is not available to them. They move the ball and sets screens and take what the defense gives them, so if the there is no open layup or wide open three and they have an open mid range they will take that shot. The Warriors are harder to guard not only because they have great shooters but also because they will shoot from anywhere on the court even if majority of their shots are threes or layups. In the playoffs last year after game one the Spurs guarded the three point line and kept their bigs planted near the rim, to contest any 3pt shot or layup and Harden and Gordon had a lot of opportunities for wide open mid range jumpers and ended up deferring to more contested shots, hurting our offensive potency. If your Popovich that is exactly what you want your opponents doing, taking contested shots as much as possible and you just live with that. He instructed his bigs to wait for the Rockets at rim instead of closing out and perimeter players were asked not to reach in when Harden was driving, instead guide him to the bigs or play for a pass. By not taking shots in a significant area on the court our offense is a little more predictable and perhaps better to game plan in the playoffs where the defenses are better. Harden, Paul and Gordon have a good mid range game and I would love for them to take that shot a few times when open just to keep the defense guessing and not assume when they drive that it is a lay up or a pass. The other rotation guys of course not named Capela or Nene should take a layup or shoot a three. Hope you get the point I am trying to make.
     
  6. carib

    carib Member

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    The Rockets shoot a much higher volume of 3pt attempts than GSW and the Warriors have better 3pt shooters, interesting.
     
  7. lakersuck2

    lakersuck2 Member

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    I don't think this will be a problem at all. The only 2 on the team who can and should take mid rangers anyway are Paul and Harden and they both have the green light to do so anyway. I don't want Ryno, Gordon, Ariza etc taking long 2s and I trust that harden and Paul will do it if it's open no matter what the overall team philosophy is. It's the preseason and while our stars are playing more than others, they're still keeping it chill. If there's an open lane drive if not just jack the three and save energy. It'll change when the games matter and they're actually trying. That no mid range thing never applied to Harden anyway he always had the green light to do whatever he wanted to do.
     
  8. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    Yes, this is also part of it. It's more about just not taking any shot aside from threes. Guys getting so close to the basket yet pass it out.
     
  9. mfastx

    mfastx Member

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    Exactly this. Our system is absolutely fantastic. Just needs a couple of tweaks to be more versatile when necessary. 99% of the time we are fine doing just what we are. But to win a championship, you need to be able to adjust when teams take away what you like to do.

    That's just mind games from Pop. They beat us 3/4 times in the regular season. I never suggested abandoning it our offense lol. It is great, no argument there. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

    Literally took me like 5 seconds to find these lol.





    I mean sure, we were relatively successful considering we were less talented, but the talent disparity wasn't that big. Many people picked us to win the series. Who knows if we win the series or not if we attempt a few mid range shots instead of forcing it inside and getting stuffed. But the fact is the Spurs shut our offense down and if we want to win it all, we need to be able to adjust when teams take away what we want to do. We are going to face all the top defenses on the way to the championship so we need to be prepared.
     
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  10. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    This play is not 2-2. It is 2 on 1. As soon as Harden sheds that defender with the pick....He and Capela are going downhill at a single opponent.

    I have over and over shown countless videos of this fact that if you stick to the perimeter on PnR and we shed that PG defender, which isn't hard to do, the last man back is at Harden's mercy....and Harden is best to attack all the way to the rim with Capela as if it is a fastbreak.

    Maybe guys like Nash and Paul can pull up,,,,that's fine...and so can Harden. But if Harden wants to attack a 2 on 1 situation, when no help is being sent...I'm all for it.

    Pops knows that, and that is why he sent help much more than showing that defense ... (he did mix it up, obviously). You can't go 22-50 and 19-43 on threes when Pops sticks to the shooters.

    I'm forever disappointed in some media like Thorpe who cannot see the difference between the simple rim/arc defense OKC played, and the defense Pops played.

    Alykhan Bijani has an account here. He has posted one or two articles for Clutch. I welcome you to invite him to chime in. And all show him some videos. And we'll have a discussion about Game 1 and Game 4. And the adjustments Pops made in Game 2. And the adjustments MDA made for Game 3 that allowed Harden to score 43 points, and the big games Capela had.

    And the end, he will agree with me that there is no Silver Bullet defense that Pops figured out, and that Pops tried to let us shot in Game 1 and it failed miserably...and our adjustments actually produced Game 4, another Bombs-away game, to prevent the drives.
     
    #170 heypartner, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member

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    deserves its own thread
     
  12. mfastx

    mfastx Member

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    Gasol would just back up all the way to the rim and was able to stop Harden several times at the rim due to his length. I recall this happening a ton. Harden's best posteason TS% as a Rocket came when he had his lowest 3PAr of only 36%.
     
  13. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    That stat says when Harden drives instead of shoots 3s, he has a higher TS%, because of fouls and layups. That's my point, not yours.

    We shot 22-50 and 19-43 on 3s in Game 1 and 4. The defense you are describing did *not* happen in those games. They left the shooters to help Gasol. I'm sure you are also remember plays where Harden just didn't find the open man, and Gasol was tracking him all the way from the pick to the rim, while help was closing on Capela. Gasol tracking him the whole way definitely takes away the mid-range pull-up, too. That's the sophisticated defense of Pops that I'm describing.

    I'm sure you also recall Harden making it all the way to the rim or ooping to Capela. But when those plays happen, you forget who the defender ways. It was very often Gasol getting burned....as you say, "a ton."

    Hey, let's not talk too much about PnR options, though. When ppl are talking about ignoring the midrange or like @DaDakota saying we just need to add a little, we are really talking about other plays versus the PnR. That's really what this thread is about, no?

    But if you want to talk more about PnRs, it's in the spoiler

    Reading this assumes the defense is sending no help off the shooters. As I pointed out in Game 1 and Game 4 ... that was not the defense Pops ran.

    anyhoot: this theory Harden doesn't mix in Pull Ups enough is more about what other players using the PnR do, who aren't threats to drive like Harden is.

    You can say Gasol disrupted the 2 on 1 drive with Harden/Capela all you want (it wasn't a ton, and it was usually a different defense actually, combining help), but if Harden pulls up as much as Parker does, it's not going to increase the efficiency any. You are talking about minor tweaks to Harden's decision-making as an option to add to Drive, Oop, Kick, or Get Fouled. If you pull up, he will miss some, but one thing for sure, he'll never get fouled....which is the #1 most efficient option of PnR, by far.

    And before we get the argument..."pulling up forces teams to come out" ... not really, that's just theory. Guys like Roberson and Kashi can follow Harden around the pick enough to fkk with a pull-up -- Ginobody-block style. The big will still follow Capela nearly all the time...or (like Pops did) they will not run that defense at all,,,,Pops will go to his help defense.

    bottomline: When you are an absolute ELITE driver/finisher, it's best to attack a 2 on 1 with the threat of foul, oop, layup, kick and Harden's floater....that's why Harden chooses to attack a 2 on 1 much more than pull-up.
     
    #173 heypartner, Oct 13, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  14. mfastx

    mfastx Member

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    He's shooting from all over the floor here:



    See around 1:45 in the video, Harden does a pick and roll and Bogut stays back at the rim. Knowing that Bogut would block the shot, he just steps back for the easy, open jumper. I want more of that instead of just barreling to the rim hoping for a foul.

    Defensive schemes change from game to game and often multiple times within each game. I'm not saying they played the same scheme the entire series, and I'm not saying Harden passed up open midrange shots every single game. I remember distinctly that there were long stretches where we struggled scoring and Harden was frequently wide open at the foul line extended and kept taking it in to try and draw a foul or something. I was screaming at the TV lol. I'm not calling for a wholesale change in our offensive approach and I'm not looking to get further into a drawn out discussion about Pops' defensive schemes. I noticed it happening a few times in last year and wanted to say that we, and Harden specifically, shouldn't be turning down good, open 15 footers just because they're midrange. Harden used to shoot those shots all the time, quite successfully too. It was a valuable tool in his arsenal and he's gone away from that. The last couple of seasons he's shot an increasing number of three pointers, which is fine, but eliminating a valuable skillset from your game is not beneficial.

    I'm also not calling for other Rockets to shoot midrange shots, only the ones that are good at them (Harden, CP3, maybe Gordon?)
     
  15. bingsha10

    bingsha10 Member

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    Where were all the open 3's in this game against the spurs? Oh yea, there weren't any. Only Pop letting Anderson miss shooting a million miles away from the basket.
     
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  16. brewer's goat

    brewer's goat Member

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    doesn't matter. contested 3s > wide open mid-range according to some idiots here. Meanwhile, we keep getting our clock cleaned by the Spurs. Have fun fellas.
     
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  17. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    lol preseason rage
     
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  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Have the lack of midrancheros destroyed Zhou's chance to be Z.O.A.T.?

    The answer is not in dispute.

    Keep it real @OTMid
     
  19. carib

    carib Member

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    You are right, Pop did not dare us to shoot the mid range cause he knew we were not going to take that shot. He focused on contesting 3's and keeping bigs under the rim to contest layups or make the driver pass to the wing.
     
  20. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    Are we really losing our collective **** over a preseason game? Like really?
     
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