Anyone who votes no never saw the guy play. I rank him right up there with Jordan ahead of Kareem, Bird, and Magic. That 84 draft was the definitely the GOAT.
GOAT is NO1 of Alltime of All the players. The poll suggests he is "only" a Top 5 player, within Top 5. I suggest No2 at the very least, after or in front of Jordan is a question for another time.
Yeah, but Garnett in Minnesota went through a similar stretch. LeBron couldn't win a ring until he teamed up with other superstars. Jordan always had great support. Wilt only won two rings even though there weren't many teams back then. I would argue that wasn't his fault at all, it had to do with the drug suspensions and injuries that decimated that team. Whenever he had a good team around him he made deep runs
Hakeem is one of the few stars to win a championship as the solo star on a team. What he did in 1994 is incredible. He didn't have Kobe, or Wade, or Toni Parker. He had Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, O-T, Cassell, Elie, and Maxwell. None of those guys will make it to the hall of fame. To put it in perspective - those guys had a total combined TWO all-star appearance in their ENTIRE PLAYING CAREERS. What HOF has won a championship with less? Lebron? Kobe? Dirk? Garnett? Duncan? Jordan. All of them had all-stars next to them - legendary ones at that - HOF side-kicks Only one team might be comparable - the Pistons. Even then they had Rip, Billips, and Wallace. But I would say that is the only team you could compare in the last 40 years.
Right. I know all of this already. I'm just stating that those stats do take some level of defensive prowess into account. It's not solely offensive production. There really isn't a perfect statistic to measure a player's defense significance. Also, as previously stated, I'm not saying that I would rank those guys ahead of Dream defensively. Hakeem is easily in the conversation as one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) defensive big men in the history of the NBA. But it's hard to measure the dropoff in defense from Hakeem to Duncan and Shaq versus the overall leap in efficiency and production we saw with those guys. As other posters said, Hakeem's game didn't exactly scream efficiency. He took a lot of mid-range jumpers and he turned the ball over a lot for a center. I think if you're measuring careers, you could make a strong case for Dream over Shaq and Duncan. But based on the barometers I tend to value most when comparing players (peak and prime efficiency and production, individual accolades and team success, to a lesser extent), I just give a slight edge to those two guys. But all-time conversations are pretty much totally subjective for the most part. Like, I don't think you could make a decent case for any player being better than Jordan, but you could probably make a case for 8-10 other guys going in that No. 2 spot based on whatever barometers you use to judge athletes. The most important thing, IMO, is consistency. I can't use one barometer to judge player A and then not use the same barometer to judge player B. And because of that consistency, it's just hard for me to put Dream in my top 5.
Yeah, I mean obviously you have to take into consideration how well a player dominated within his respective era and the talent of that respective era. That's why I never discuss any player who peaked before the 60s in my top 25, and Pettit and Mikan are the only guys I would even allow to sniff my top 50. But I don't think there was necessarily a lack of talent in Shaq or Duncan's era. Maybe not quite the level of elite defensive bigs that we had in the 90s, but still certainly no slouches. I'm thinking of guys like Mutombo, Dwight, Ben Wallace, Yao, KG, Camby, etc. Yeah, Hakeem's athleticism and quick hands made him just an absolute monster as a shot blocker and a stealer. And while those numbers are certainly impressive when compared to other players in this conversation, I just personally value other statistics a little more. Yeah, but there are dozens of these types of analysis that I've seen that have a number of different guys at the top. Statisticians and analysts all have numbers and data they favor most, which ultimately skews which athletes end up coming out on top. Personally, I think you just have to consider the data, accolades and context in front of you to make an informed decision. And when I take all factors into consideration, Hakeem is still easily top 10 for me, but he sits just outside my top 5.
All I know is that it is the last 2 minutes of a game, it does not matter who is guarding Dream. It could be Russell or Wilt or Jabbar or Shaq or Mikan or Duncan or anyone. You are still going to double team him because he will score on all those guys. And on the other end, you don't have to double team Dream's guy because Dream will make something happen: blocked shot, altered shot, bad shot, steal, deny, rebound. That is why he is the best. I don't care what stats people have come up with in the last 20 years or so, he is the best two-way center ever. He is the only player in NBA history to register at least a 4 in assists, blocks, points, rebounds, and steals in 8 playoff games. Ben Wallace is the only other person to do this and he only did it twice. And by the way, only one year during Dream's career did the Rockets have a winning record in games he did not play. Speaking of Duncan, please. You can't miss clutch free throws in the Finals and have others carry you over the hump if you want to be mentioned in the Top 5. Comparing centers and wings is like apples and oranges. Wings handle the ball, but someone has to get the ball to the center. And Dream was a center... every time someone says he was a 4 or even worse, a stretch four, I want to throw up. It shows you know little, saw little, and read little. In his autobiography he repeatedly states that he is a center, a big man, and that is all he ever wanted to be. His book is a clinic on center play. When he's teaching Lebron and Kobe he's not teaching them how to spot up and shoot. He's teaching them back-to-the-basket post moves. Center stuff. Here's a center boxing out: It's a great photo because of the look on both faces. Dream is thinking: That ball is mine. Shaq is thinking: That ball is his.
I think there are some folks in this thread that didn't watch Dream play. He's the best I've ever seen and I don't care who's tossed into the conversation. Rimrocker did an excellent job of describing him.
Out of all of the greats to ever play the game, only one was in the top ten in points, rebounds, blocks, and steals when they retired. Dream was the greatest all around player we have seen. There is a reason why Kobe and LeBron have worked with him to better their game.
On another note, R. Horry should be in the HOF because of his playoff heroics with multiple teams alone.
Hakeem was the best at different facets of the center position game. He had no weaknesses. I laugh when Shaq and Tim Duncan gets compared to him. Teams can play up Shaq's weaknesses and Tim was methodical, but slow compared to Hakeem. Put in Hakeem on any team and you'd have a wrecking ball both offensively and defensively. Then its just a matter of filling up your team.
He wasn't better defensive player than Duncan. This is probably the most accurate impact statistic for players between 91-14 seasons.
So that's missing Hakeems younger years and not including Duncan's last two old years, and Hakeem is only .04 behind? I don't see how that shows he's a worse defender. Also, when it's that close these stats aren't definitive. Secondly, Hakeem got a lot more blocks and steals, was a better man defender, and he was just far more athletic and could affect more shots. Duncan may have been better on the pnr. The other issue is this is xrapm, so it includes box score info. It's not a pure impact stat
Regular season ts%: Duncan: .551 Shaq: .586 Hakeem: .553 Playoff ts%: Duncan: .548 Shaq: .565 Hakeem: .569 As we can see, Shaq's efficiency advantage goes away in the playoffs. On turnovers, Hakeem and Shaq turned it over about 3 times per game, Duncan 2.5. I agree you could make a case for Shaq or Duncan. But to me Hakeem was the best defender and in the playoffs was able to raise his offensive game to be as good or better than the other guys. And he also defeated much tougher competition and rarely struggled in the playoffs. Hakeems style was more difficult to stop
Hakeem wasn't that good defensively first few years though '89 and '90 seasons would boost his defensive RAPM, but it wouldn't change much. Duncan was 2nd in DRPM last season, he was just as good on defense last two years. I think guarding pick&rolls is more important than ability to guard post-ups in super high esteem, but mainly mistakes like that is why I consider Hakeem to be a bit worse defensively:
Individually, I would pick Hakeem over Duncan any day of the week. I think Hakeem was better on both sides of the floor in their respective primes. That being said, maybe Duncan was a better 'team defender', whatever that means. The tricky part of evaluating Hakeem is this. The only reason he's a top 10 all-time candidate is because of his playoff dominance. If we just focused on regular season numbers and achievement, he''s more of a top 20 player rather than top 10. But since Hakeem was so good - at least individually - in the playoffs, he gets a bump in the all-time ranking. But here's the catch : While Hakeem did raise his game come playoff time, it didn't necessarily translate to wins. 2 rings, 1 Finals, 1 WCF out of 18 years of career. So when someone says Hakeem was the best playoff performer, what does he actually mean? Just pure stats? That's not how we rank players unfortunately.
Interesting. You're right that Duncan is his last years was very good defensively. DRPM 15-16 : 5.43 (2nd) 14-15 : 4.67 (5th) 13-14 : 5.38 (3rd) The only questionable part is that Hakeem wasn't that good of a defender in his early years. He led the league in DWS for many years in the 80s, so I don't know I quite agree with that. Overall, I think Hakeem was a better man-to-man defender, while Duncan was better from a team perspective.
