Didn't say 'appearance' in my last post. 1 Finals means Hakeem was eliminated in the Finals (or Finals was as far as he was able to go.) Rings obviously mean he won the championship. Hence, 2 rings (94, 95) + 1 Finals (86) + 1 WCF (97). 3 Finals and 4 WCF could be interpreted as 4 WCF on top of 3 Finals. That's misleading.
Ok, reading it like that I can see your point, but if you are just listing accomplishments I don't think anyone would misinterpret them.
When evaluating careers, MVP matters just as much, if not more than mere Finals appearance. If you actually win the championship that's another story, but just advancing to the Finals won't overshadow actually winning MVP. If Harden wins MVP this year, he will have 1 MVP, 1 Finals, and 1 WCF at age 27. Hakeem had 0 MVP, 1 Finals and 0 WCF until age 30. Also, what do you call a player with great stats with lack of team success? Until age 30, Hakeem had great stats in the playoffs with little success as a team player. We can argue about the causes, but that's just factually true.
Of course team success matters, otherwise Westbrook should win the MVP this year over Harden. Also, Hakeem wasn't the most team friendly player in his early years. I remember a quote from Hakeem saying something to the effect of "Why should I pass to my teammates when I'm a better scorer than they are". Hakeem was even criticized as a black hole on offense at one time (look it up). While I agree that Hakeem didn't have that much help ever since he broke up with Sampson, some responsibility for lack of success of the Rockets as a team during mid 80s to early 90s has to fall on Hakeem's shoulders.
Yeah, but you're looking solely at base stats like blocks and steals. When you consider overall production and efficiency with advanced stats like PER, WS, VORP and BPM, Hakeem unfortunately falls beneath guys like Shaq and Duncan. Hakeem does get a boost because his production and efficiency actually improved in the postseason (which is extremely rare), but many of those numbers are often still below Shaq and Duncan. Personally, if I could pick one of those three guys to start a franchise with, I'd take prime Hakeem because of his overall versatility as a player and ability to life his game in the postseason. But this isn't that conversation. This is more of an all-time "who had the best career" discussion, and I think both Duncan and Shaq just accomplished more and were more productive at their peaks than Dream was.
Yes some criticism are valid. But everyone got these criticisms. They said LeBron didn't have a killer instinct, Jordan was selfish, Kobe a ballhog, Dirk too soft, etc
The problem with those stats is they are really offensive stats Hakeem was far better defender than those guys, and in the playoffs arguably better on offense
Except they're not solely offensive stats. WS and BPM both have defensive components (DWS and DBPM). I agree that Hakeem was the better defensive player, but overall he was not as productive or as valuable across the board.
Of course. All I'm saying is Hakeem was a late bloomer, and I think he could've been even greater if he was able to enter his prime a little earlier. But as it stands, I don't think many people would put him in top 5 based on numbers or career achievement.
I think I'm going to stop debating in this thread. I honestly think posters aren't being particularly objective if they just blindly put Hakeem in their top five, but I also don't enjoy arguing against Hakeem in any debate. It feels... icky. I take zero pleasure in it. Bottom line, I love Dream. He's my favorite all-time athlete by a mile, easily the greatest professional athlete in the history of Houston sports and one of my idols. But, objectively, I don't think he belongs in the top 5 of all-time NBA players. Is he worthy of the debate? Of course. But when you start nitpicking guys in that conversation, I just think other guys make better cases than Hakeem.
I watched a lot of Hakeem's games growing up, and while he was a phenomenal talent, I wouldn't exactly call his style the most efficient. For instance, Hakeem attempted a lot of fadeaways as a center, which is a very difficult shot even for guards. But it did look beautiful when he made them.
People in SA will argue you to death that Duncan is better than Hakeem. Dream is the greatest big man ever imo. To have 200 steals in a season is just insane for a big man.
DPM and Win Shares are not good defensive stats Here's what BREF says about DPM: "on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately. What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender." Defensive Win Shares is based on DRTG, which is really more of a team stat. "Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. " If there is a defensive stat I would use, it's DRPM, but it hasn't been around for long.
Yeah, but it was really hard to stop in the playoffs. Where super efficient regular season guys like Robinson or Malone couldn't get the same easy looks and their playoff performance suffered, Hakeem was able to make tough shots even against one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history (the 94 Knicks).
Well he averaged 20 ppg,12 rpg, 2.7 blocks, 1.2 steals on .538 shooting as a rookie. Year 2, in the playoffs, in 20 games, he averaged 27 points, 12 rebounds, 3.5 blocks, 2 steals on 53% shooting. This was against superstar 80s teams like the Lakers and Celtics. It is scary to think what he would have done if he hadn't started basketball so late.
Well, I tend to consider both "who had the biggest impact in their respective eras" along with best career. But if we're discussing overall careers then I think it's important to consider the effect that the types of games played/competition have on stats that measure productivity and efficiency. Advances in sport science and the rest that Popovich afforded Duncan probably skew those numbers a bit. While Duncan played against some of the greatest PFs like Garnett and Nowitski, those were less physical players than the Barkley and Karlas that came before them. Shaq's a little different but there's no doubt he benefited from Yao being the only guy close in terms of production during his success. I chose to look primarily at all-time blocks and steals because these numbers reveal that Hakeem was an anomaly across all eras since '73. At every turn, he outplayed centers who are HOF in their own right. I remember the end of Dream's career very well and you could see that same player with a back that betrayed him. Still got Houston its titles though! So in short, side by side comparisons don't tell the whole story. Thanks for mentioning Hakeem's improvement in the playoffs, I hadn't looked at that before. I'm trying not to talk past you though, so since you're a stats guy I hope you might not already know about this study: http://www.thedreamshake.com/2017/3/23/15038020/houston-rockets-hakeem-olajuwon-goat They use per, win shares, blocks per min., etc and it looks like Dream comes out at #1! That has to count for something, right?
Realistically, I think anything from 4-10 is fair. A lot depends on what you value most- regular season vs playoffs, longevity vs peak, prime vs peak, etc. I think Jordan, Kareem and LeBron have the top 3 locked down.
That's good and all, but what happened after that is also important (and kinda my point.) 86-87 : eliminated in the 2nd round 87-88 : eliminated in the 1st round 88-89 : eliminated in the 1st round 89-90 : eliminated in the 1st round 90-91 : eliminated in the 1st round 91-92 : failed to make the playoffs 92-93 : eliminated in the 2nd round This was a dark time during Hakeem's career as people started to question Hakeem's value as a player because he was already 30 years old with no particular achievement to show for (other than some DPOYs). And then Hakeem suddenly catapulted himself into a top 2 player of the league with the beginning of the 93-94 season. That's what I mean when I say Hakeem's peak was short-lived; he was always an great individual talent, but as you know winning is the most important stat in this business.
