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Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Jun 12, 2016.

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Will this shooting help Trump or Clinton, if it turns out that it was religiously motivated terror?

  1. It will help Trump

    51.0%
  2. It will help Clinton

    7.3%
  3. It will help neither of them

    41.7%
  1. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld ಠ_ರೃ
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    I thought there should be a separate thread in the D&D to discuss this post.

    Apparently now the identity of the shooter has come out:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looks like it is probable - statistically speaking - that the shooter might have come from a background where partying with alcohol and being gay are - due to their religious ideology - regarded as morally unacceptable sins.

    [​IMG]

    Big MAK correctly pointed out:

    However, as the polls above show, this is not only true for "radical Islam" (unless you follow the assumption that mainstream Islam is, in fact, rather radical).

    To go back to Joe Barely Cares' post:

    Do you think this shooting will help Trump or Clinton?

    I think Trump is a dangerous man. Although I am critical of Islam, I find his idea to ban Muslims from entering the country absurd and outrageous (among many of his other statements which are offensive, and wrong).

    On the other hand, I feel that Clinton is intellectually dishonest, at least. Automatically saying "Islam has nothing to do with it" when things like these happen is an obvious lie, and it does - in my opinion - not help secular Muslims.

    When Christian nutjobs murder abortion doctors - of course their religious beliefs have to do with it. It would be untrue to say that that is not the case. When this happens, leftists attack both the right to bear arms and Christianity. But they don't attack Islam when someone murders because of religious beliefs which have their roots in that religious ideology.

    My prediction:

    This shooting will help Trump (which is a shame). People realize that if you import a group of people who hold very backwards beliefs, it has the potential to endanger freedoms your society had to fight long and hard for. Sadly, this presents an opportunity for hateful populists like Trump to attack peaceful people (rather than point out the important nuance that the backwards beliefs are what needs to be dealt with, instead of demonizing people who happened to be born into such an ideology). And it actually helps Trump when someone like Clinton repeats the mantra that "Islam has nothing to do with it".
     
    #1 AroundTheWorld, Jun 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    Islam is awful
     
  3. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost clean your room bucko
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    Too far removed from November for it to have an overwhelming impact, but it will steer and shape the narrative for several weeks.

    I'm already seeing the battlelines drawn up on social media.

    Gun Control vs. Fundamental Islam
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. FTW Rockets FTW

    FTW Rockets FTW Contributing Member

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    Don't care about the presidency at the moment but the bigger issue is how these guys so easily acquire weapons and then engage in mass destruction.

    Guns are needed for protection blah blah blah

    Get rid of them already. Enough of the silly 2nd ammenment
     
  5. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Mineshaft Enthusiast
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    I predict that, like every other mass shooting in the US, we will learn about several huge warning signs that were completely ignored by the people who knew him.
     
  6. Realjad

    Realjad Contributing Member

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    Not possible to get rid of guns. Too many out there.. too many un-registered guns out there.

    open border makes it too easy to smuggle them in aswell

    and/or they will just find another way, look at China and their mass stabbings
     
  7. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    Was this your comment after the Paris massacres?
     
  8. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld ಠ_ರೃ
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    I'm both in favor of strict gun control and highly critical of Islam (and if you look at the Pew polls, it's not just the fringe of Islam that has strong anti-gay views).

    But we have much stricter gun control in Europe than in the USA, and these things still happen far too often here in Europe. If terrorists want guns, they will have guns.

    The motherlode of bad ideas should be the topic.

    But sadly, rather than focusing on the terrible ideology and its backwardness, one side will stir hate against innocent people (secular Muslims) and the other side will continue to prevent that "this has nothing to do with Islam".
     
  9. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Well, for the impact it will have upon the election, it appears that Hillary Clinton will lose one vote in the Sunshine State:

    http://voters.findthedata.com/l/28019600/Omar-Mir-Seddique-Mateen

    (yes, I'm simply trolling here, and this shouldn't be taken seriously... now queue the unserious kneejerk discussion about the evils of guns and especially those super-duper evil "assault weapons" in society)
     
  10. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Contributing Member

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    Wasn't it Cruz, Jindal, Huckabee, and other Republicans who attended sermons by "Pastor" Swanson who actually stated "kill the gays"?
     
  11. dandorotik

    dandorotik Contributing Member

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    I understand your stance on Islam. But if you look at the wort mass killings in the history of our country, a very small percentage are related to Islam.

    Then again, 3 of them are. So, you can't just ignore it outright. But most of these killings are done by crazy middle-aged males- Virginia Tech, San Diego McDonalds, UT, Lubys in Killeen- so how do you go about targeting that group for increased law enforcement activity?

    I think the obvious place you start is how could one person kill 50 people and wound 50+ others within a few minutes? Is it due to a weapon that can kill that rapidly? Is it due to lack of security in a place that holds a certain number of people (e.g. should it be mandatory that all places with occupancy of 50 or more have metal detectors, multiple armed police officers)? Was the police response time effective (I'm certainly assuming this was the case).

    I only say that due to the mass nature of it. In terms of his ideology, how exactly do you police that? Do you step up surveillance on mosques? On Muslims in the U.S.? One thing I can tell you is Trump's stupid Ban All Muslims doesn't apply in this case b/c, apparently, he was born here.

    If you come out and say, "Islam is Terror," how is that going to prevent more tragedies? If you acknowledge that there is a problem with Islam, how exactly do you translate that into policy? Bans on mosques? Outlawing Islam? You see the problem here? It's one thing to personally rail against some of the teachings of Islam, but translating that into actual policy? I don't see how you codify that.
     
  12. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    a pox on both houses: liberal gun laws, and an ideology that hates and acts on that hate for no reason (Islam for all you "dunt b so pc we have 2 acknowledge the THREAT" brehs").

    There are more realistic tangible steps to rein in the former without Constitutional violations--that aren't currently being taken.
     
  13. Northside Storm

    Northside Storm Contributing Member

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    I suspect this will help Trump--this along with a protracted recession due to monetary tightening + global conditions were the only risk factors I saw in the horizon. I've upgraded his chances to win to 40% from 35% in my (rough) mental model.

    of course, he could always f**k this moment up by coming up with more garbage.
     
  14. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Contributing Member

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    That doesn't matter though. Any of those steps is perceived and displayed as a tyrannical attack on people's 2nd Amendment rights even when they clearly do not violate the Constitution.
     
  15. DaDakota

    DaDakota Contributing Member

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    The US is not stupid enough to elect Trump.

    This is horrible, guns are far too easy to get, and why is no one surprised that there are ties to Islam?

    DD
     
  16. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld ಠ_ರೃ
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    You learn from Israel. They have had to deal with this crap - Islamist suicide attacks and mass murders - for many decades. The following article was written after Bataclan. The same applies to the USA, and every country in the world that is under threat from Islam.

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-france-can-learn-from-israel-in-confronting-islamist-terror/

    What France Can Learn from Israel in Confronting Islamist Terror


    As my French friends, colleagues, and acquaintances agonize over what is to be done in the aftermath of the Paris attacks, the best advice I can think of is to look at Israel.

    This tragedy was not “France’s 9/11.” Al-Qaeda effectively depleted its stateside human assets in that attack and never regained the ability to strike the American heartland. This is France’s Al-Aqsa Intifada – unfortunately, more of the same is absolutely going to follow. Whatever one’s political predisposition to Israeli counterterrorism policies may be, its success fighting Islamist terror over the past two decades is the only real-world model for overcoming the specific challenges France now faces.

    Here are some of the main takeaways.

    First, it’s time to sacrifice some freedoms of convenience. Most Israelis don’t know what it’s like to walk into a mid-size concert venue of the kind targeted in France without passing through a metal detector and their government intends to keep it that way. They may gripe about it, but they would feel less free if their government wasn’t inconveniencing them on a daily basis.

    Second, go ahead and profile. All of the jihadists bent on terrorizing France have some obvious commonalities. The reason Israel’s Ben Gurion International Airport is considered the gold standard of airline security is that Israeli screeners are encouraged to single out passengers for extra scrutiny on the basis of religion, age, gender, and so forth, while waving the vast majority through terminals more quickly. Not even the most seasoned terrorist is likely to take the risk of running this gauntlet if he knows for certain he’s going to find himself in a room full of inquisitive Israelis.

    Third, recognize that deterrence isn’t fair. Since it’s impossible to dissuade suicide bombers with the threat of certain death or bodily harm, you have to threaten things they care about. Israel’s policy of demolishing the family homes of Palestinian terrorists may not be altogether “just,” but it’s necessary to counter the overwhelmingly positive social approval and financial benefits these families receive for contributing “martyrs” to the cause.

    If being related to a terrorist isn’t already a deeply unpleasant experience in France, make it so. Understand that it’s neither possible nor desirable to ensure that terrorists are the only ones paying a price for their terrorism. Make whatever efforts to avoid harming innocents are consistent with your values, but don’t let the backlash from armchair counter-terrorists and Francophobes abroad dictate policy.

    Fourth, target the brains behind terrorist infrastructure. Go after the people responsible for recruiting, financing, training, motivating and directing Jihadis, not just the foot soldiers. Prosecute them if you can, but if they’re overseas don’t be afraid to dispense swifter justice. Though controversial when Israel first adopted targeted killing as a counterterrorism tool, most governments (including most notably the Obama administration) now recognize its effectiveness. The number of fatalities from suicide bombings in Israel dropped from hundreds in 2002 to zero in 2010.

    Fifth, fight the incitement. Americans can still afford to pretend that Islamist hate speech and indoctrination has little to do with terrorist violence, but France can’t. The French government took a step in the right direction when it deported 40 Islamists accused of incitement in June of this year. It needs to go further. Instead of avoiding the banlieues, rings of Muslim majority neighborhoods around French cities that are impoverished, crime-ridden, and blighted, gendarmeries and intelligence services should sweep into these suburbs and place community centers, mosques, and high rises under surveillance. Checkpoints should be setup at the entrances to Islamist havens and searches conducted on those commuting in and out of these areas.

    Sixth, France must prioritize national security interests over sectarian grievances. It’s understandable that French Muslims are frustrated by their socio-economic marginalization, and there is surely room for improvement in how the authorities treat this estranged minority. But the rights and wrongs of this issue don’t diminish France’s right to defend itself or alter fundamental realities about what it takes to do that.

    Finally, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, France must control and monitor its borders if it wishes to avoid a repeat of Friday’s terror attacks. The ability of at least one of the attackers to claim refugee status in Greece and move onto France was an intelligence failure of the highest degree. As Sweden, Germany, Austria, and other countries reconsider Schengen, an agreement that allows uninhibited movement around Europe, so too should France. The French Interior ministry instituted border controls immediately after the attack. This change should be permanent.

    As President François Hollande declared after the attacks, France is reeling from an “act of war,” not a crime wave. Israel has demonstrated that it is possible to win such wars, but this isn’t for the faint-hearted.
     
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  17. EddieWasSnubbed

    EddieWasSnubbed Contributing Member

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    This shouldn't help anybody in the election, but then I remember that our country is full of a bunch of weak minded, pseudo-racists that are set in their non-pleated khaki , sweater-tied-around-their-hips ways - which is what made Trump so popular in the first place.

    The issue here is how does one get such easy access to assault rifles, not something some fear mongering buffoon has fed to a bunch of mouth breathers. A simple religion is not the issue. If that was the case, this would be the Crusades 2.0.

    Wait, wasn't that a bunch of Christians?


    Religion is stupid. Quit blaming it. There's always going to be a bunch of radical idiots that are willing to do stupid, senseless things such as this. Without religion, these things would still be going on.
     
    #17 EddieWasSnubbed, Jun 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2016
  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    It isn't about Islam is terror. The issue is the liberals are ignoring the enemies at the gates. You stated it yourself; Most of the mass killings in the US were not done by the US. Do you realize most of the mass killings in the middle east are done by radical Islam?

    Most are not suggesting all Muslims are killers. However its the liberals who are defending radical Islam in spite of the Christians. Its guns rights faults, not radical Islam. News flash! Who do you think was killed last night? Homophobic Christians? Its sad many of you liberals hate Christians more than radical Islam.

    Every since Obama has adopted the policy of pulling out of the middle east, the violence in the US has risen. It doesn't matter what policy you implement, radical Islam wants destruction around the world. Put an end to the downplay of the significance of the issue at hand.

    Starting new wars is not the answer, but nor is pretending radial islam isn't a issue either.
     
  19. percicles

    percicles Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Marco Rubio, who opposes marriage equality, adoption equality, and LGBT civil rights laws, is on CNN condemning Muslim bigotry against gays.</p>&mdash; Angus Johnston (@studentactivism) <a href="https://twitter.com/studentactivism/status/742006340499935232">June 12, 2016</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  20. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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