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Do you trust Ken Giles?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by what, May 16, 2017.

  1. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    My point is not to deny that he's getting better. If you get to define your parameters so specifically, I should be allowed to as well. If you gather up all the "bizarre" save situations (or wherever you want to call them) there have been many more of those than close save situations. We both agree that those are where a closer should be judged.

    Why do you need a number? Let's just say, if he saves the next 9/11 close save situations (1 run margin), he will gain my trust. Everyone understands he won't be perfect. I really don't find a number necessary though.
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    If you insist on nitpicking, at least be accurate about it.

    The worst "stretch" of the season, the stretch entirely responsible for why his ERA is where it is, was the 3 game stretch in appearences 3-4-5 of this season.

    Looking at those appearances:
    Comes into a tie game in game 3 (non-save) and gives up 2 runs, comes into a 7-3 game 5 days after his last appearance (because he needs work) and gives up 2 runs, and then comes in to a 10-5 game 4 days after the last appearance in the 8th inning (because he was warming up when it was a close game, and again he needs work).

    He basically had 3 appearances over 10 days... none of them save situations... and that's when the vast majority of bitching about him commenced.

    Honestly, you still wouldn't be able to give one. You're still arguing about this in the midst of a solid stretch of converted saves. It's clear you'll have limited faith in him until he overwhelms you with one of the most dominant closer seasons ever (which is quite the standard).
     
  3. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    I wasn't talking about non-save situations. If you wan't to make blanket statements about the Giles discussion, that's fine. but I am not going to argue for the sake of arguing. My opinions are clearly laid out, and don't match up with the opinions you assume I have.
     
    Astrofan59 likes this.
  4. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Well, I was... and that was the majority of the criticism early that I said to consider/take in context. That 3 game stretch, in which he had long stretches between appearances and wasn't getting consistent work, where he game up 5 of the 7ER's he's allowed on the season, was pretty significant when one tries to look simply at his "non-dominant" ERA as a reason for claiming he's "struggling".

    Not sure you're familiar with what a "blanket" statement is... I have yet to do anything close to that.

    Yep, that's for damn sure... not sure why you try to claim otherwise at times... but that's exactly the point of some of these posts. Those have their opinions pretty well formulated/laid out, and there's very little that can be done to convince them otherwise.
     
  5. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    My post had nothing to do with ERA, or the reason some people bitch about Giles. (but you response to it did)

    . A blanket statement is one that lumps one thing/person/Idea into a larger group incorrectly (a generalization). Like when you lumped me into the group of people that will never trust Giles. (even after I gave you a ballpark number)

    So you are saying that I sometimes claim my own opinions are not well laid out? I really don't think you take the time to critically read responses. I would appreciate if you would do so, and respond to what I am actually saying
     
  6. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Will do... will continue to respond to exactly what you're actually saying.

    And btw, you yourself mockingly lumped yourself into that group last night...[Official] Tigers @ Astros
     
  7. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    :rolleyes: seriously?
     
  8. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    He wet the bed last Sept posting a 7.15 ERA.

    Most of the runs came from the disaster against the Angels, but excludng that, he had 4 of 11 appearances where he surrendered multiple hits-walks and only two 1-2-3 innings.

    I like you as a poster, just saying he's been consistently shaky beyond early in the season.

    Most of his best production last season didn't come during save situations.
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Safe to say, he's flipped the script on that... which is a good thing.
     
  10. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Contributing Member
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    I wonder what Giles's record is in his last 11 1-run save opportunities? His 1 blown save this season wasn't if I recall correctly. Last year, I thought most of his blown saves were not typical 1-run save opportunities.
     
  11. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Comparatively, true statement.

    Another true statement is, he's been somewhat shaky overall this season.
     
  12. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    5/7 ER's given up in non-save situations, indeed.

    He's continuing to improve. Pitching instead of throwing. Much better approaches this year and not giving up the long ball. Shaky was certainly apt to describe last year.
     
    #92 Nick, May 23, 2017
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  13. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Yet, you weren't calling him "shaky" overall last season when we argued about it last season. Remember?

    As for this season (or any season), we all know a pitcher can be shaky without surrendering a single ER.

    At day's end, we're both cheering the same thing, so it's all good, Nick.
     
    #93 Houstunna, May 23, 2017
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  14. T for 3

    T for 3 Member

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    Nick doesn't remember what he says. Do the best you can with him.
     
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  15. bobrek

    bobrek Proud A$$hat Mofo
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    He is 2-2 in 1 run save opportunities this season.
     
  16. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Huh? I said he was awful the first month, followed up by turning it around and earning the closers spot, and then he had a shaky September.

    He still did enough to win the job outright heading into this year.

    Of course... the level of perfection needed from him is exceedingly high. 3 up/3 down is expected every single time.

    Honestly, I'm thrilled that he's improved enough especially on giving up a HR. His stuff was as filthy as anything last year, but he's harnessing and timing his pitches much better this year.
     
    #96 Nick, May 23, 2017
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
  17. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    This clearly is the best you've got... sad that you have to resort to it.
     
  18. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    LMAO @ the "mis-remembering"

    Regardless... Go Giles, Go Stros !!!!
     
  19. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Contributing Member
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    Edit: not sure if you mean 2 saves in two 1-run, 9th inning save opportunities or 2 saves, 2 blown saves in 1-run 9th inning save opportunities. Please disregard if you mean the former.

    He's only blown 1 save this year so I don't see how he could possibly be 2-2. That blown save, he entered the game with a 3-run lead. Last I checked, they still award blown saves regardless of outcome if you lose the lead in a save situation.

    Looking at his blown saves while with the Astros, I only see one blown save when he entered the game with a 1-run lead in the 9th. Without looking at all the saves, it seems highly likely that Giles has enough saves in 1-run save opportunities in the 9th to meet T for 3's criteria for what would redeem Giles. If his time with Astros meets what would redeem him...why does he need to be redeemed? Maybe T for 3 needs a less specific criteria as Giles's problem so far seems to be the bizarre save situations and not the 1-run lead in the 9th. Granted, I assume this is likely dumb luck, but that is what happens when you start parceling data in too small of chunks.
     
    #99 Joe Joe, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
    kaleidosky likes this.
  20. bobrek

    bobrek Proud A$$hat Mofo
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    Yeah, I was pretty unclear in that reply. 2 saves in 2 opportunities.
     
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