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[ClutchFans] Rockets Playbook: Examining Jeremy Lin's favorite set

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by HMMMHMM, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    And since when is horns a set play? Isn't it a variety of offensive sets? And how can you be sure that your gifs are even signalling for horns? Please forgive me if I am dense.
     
  2. hollywoodMarine

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    So this aspect of basketball is where I am admittedly kinda clueless, so forgive me if I end up asking stupid questions :) . Wouldn't calling these plays by sending these signals that are so universal (or at least I am assuming they are universal since I recall seeing point guards on other teams making the "elbow" sign for example) kind of tip off the defenders on how to counter them? Wouldn't it be better to have like their own secret signs, and change them every once in awhile? Or am I looking too hard into this?
     
  3. bmd

    bmd Member

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    Of course they call plays. I have seen Lin, Beverley, Harden, etc. call plays before.

    And what is your obsession with read and react? Fundamental basketball is read and react regardless of what offense you are running.

    For example, if your defender is overplaying the passing lane, a smart player will "read" this and react by cutting backdoor.

    If a defender goes underneath the screen, a smart player is ready to shoot. If a player tries to anticipate the screen, a smart player reads the defender and goes the opposite way.

    Etc.

    Reading and reacting is just basketball. But what exactly is the Rockets' offense? I don't know. I couldn't tell you because I'm not on the team. I don't know the rules of their offense. But they most certainly run different sets at times.
     
  4. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    You have identified one fallacy in their argument.
     
  5. HMMMHMM

    HMMMHMM Contributing Member

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    Horns isn't a set play, nor variety of offensive sets. It's a formation that's also referred to as the A- or V-set, because of the alignment of the formation.

    [​IMG]

    Teams go to all kind of different actions out of horns and go about differently as far as how they use/call it.
    Some teams have different signals for each set they use out of Horns, others just have one signal for Horns and let their players decide which set actions they go to out of it.

    The Rockets are the former. They have different play-calls for different set plays out of Horns.

    Not sure what you mean by "how can you be sure that your gifs are even signalling for horns".
    Are the snapshots not clear enough? Pinkie and little finger means the Rockets are about to go into a pick&roll out of Horns. Elbow means the Rockets are going into Flex action. I know this because I looked into this when breaking down various Rockets sets some time ago. Trust me, I wouldn't state as much if I wasn't 100% sure on this.

    The Rockets also have another Horns set, which they go strictly after timeouts, so there is no signal or play-call for me to identify there.

    You're not looking to hard into this, no.

    Teams use the same signals for different kind of sets ("Elbow" for example means something totally different for the Pacers than it does for the Rockets), but a lot of teams simply don't care too much that the defense might know what's coming.

    For this reason, you'll see some teams (e.g. the Mavs) make the same signal that the PG of the opposing team just made for their assistant coaches/advanced scouts to see, so that they can log these and to be as well prepared as possibly the next time the two teams meet.
    If (assistant) coaches know the play-call or signal the opposing team just made, they'll often times either call out what is coming or make defensive calls, i.e. tell their players how to guard it.
    To counter this, some teams might change some of their play-call or signals in the playoffs, but most of the playcalls/singnals usually stay the same.

    Of course, with some signals you can't be totally sure what's coming anyway. When the T-Wolves for example signal "C", they are about to run their corner offense, which is when they build a triangle on one side of the court with two players on the weak-side. Thing is, Adelman gives their players freedom to read the defense and act accordingly, so what happens next is depend on how the defense plays it and the reads the Wolves players make off that defense.
    Same thing with other teams that run motion offenses or offenses with read elements like Spurs, Mavs or Blazers.
     
    #25 HMMMHMM, Feb 24, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  6. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    The difference between an offensive set and formation is semantics only. And you are right. Horns is not near so unsophisticated as some web sites would assume. When a concept reaches the NBA it will be complex.
     
  7. Apache

    Apache Member

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    and your a below average fan ..
     
  8. Apache

    Apache Member

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    Lin is a pick and roll player. cp3 is a pick and roll layer. always pick and roll with griffin or jordan.

    its a pick and roll league.
     
  9. hollywoodMarine

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    Just curious, what exactly do the Rockets do? Do they have a sophisticated strategy like the one you mentioned where they change their play-call or signals to deceive a defense that may actually be paying attention, or do they mostly just keep it the same? I know this is maybe getting too academic, but I am just wondering how sophisticated our Rockets' offense is and I do find this stuff fascinating.
     
  10. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    I will step up to the plate fully expecting to be brushed back with a high inside fast ball. The Rockets offensive strategy is highly sophisticated, relying on player reads instead of set plays. While it is entirely probable that a "play" may emerge from the on the court action, especially a play like a P&R or Howard post up which has been extensively practiced, there is rarely a called play. Plays are for junior high basketball. The Rockets players see where the defensive players are, read any mismatches and defensive shadings, and then initiate their offense. The R&R shifts the responsibility on the court to the players, where it rightfully belongs. It makes total sense for the best basketball players on the planet, and is demonstrated in the statistical analysis presented at MIT-Sloan.
     
  11. highlander3128

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    Are the numbers clear enough for you to say that?

    Clutch may publish another article to illustrate how the numbers are look like.
     
  12. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    I would like to reply, but I have no idea what exactly you are asking.
     
  13. highlander3128

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    Oops... This is meant to the OP.
     
  14. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    I would like to add that called plays are prominent in sports. They occur in NFL huddles and through sophisticated signs from the first and third base coaches in MLB. Neither of which are possible in the NBA. Except after time outs.
     
  15. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    I doubt the OP knows what you're referring to either. Are the numbers clear enough for him to say what exactly?
     
  16. freemaniam

    freemaniam 我是自由人

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    Just by reading this thread, my bball iq improves.
     
  17. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
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    This is exactly how I feel as well, and I hope Jonas knows that. I watch the Rockets every game and I couldn't have spotted this exactly play every time... I learn a lot when he identifies and breaks down plays the Rockets run.
     
  18. flamingdts

    flamingdts Member

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    You should take Coach Nick's job. There is actual analysis in this as opposed to describing.
     
  19. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

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    He is a keeper certainly. A gem. Even though we disagree often about the Rockets offense, I do completely respect the man. Intellectual disagreements do not mean that he is wrong. It just means we differ in our opinions. I love intellectual debates. It is why I frequent CF.
     
  20. bmd

    bmd Member

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    Have you ever even played junior high basketball?

    The most common offense in junior high is a basic motion offense. Pass and screen away, pass and screen away, etc. or pass and cut through the lane, pass and cut, etc.

    There are 5 spots on the floor and everybody has to fill a spot.

    If the big man gets position, pass him the ball and screen away.


    Motion offense doesn't rely on set plays.

    And that is middle school basketball.
     

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