Chron: Keeping Rockets Bench Players Happy a Problem

Easy,

What are you trying to say, that Nachbar and Morris are liable to complain and be cancer's, too? The 25mpg comes from there being plenty of games where one of the 6 frontcourt players will not be able to play, foul trouble, etc. Think about it. mpg does not equal team minutes per game, anymore than individual ppg equals the team's ppg.

Besides, my question was which one of Rice, KT, EG, and Mo deserve 30 minutes on a consistent basis? Answer that first, if you want to respond to me.

 

MManal, quit exaggerating the opposing team's press. I've seen Hawk and Mobley bring it up plenty. Hawk did several times against the Clips. Besides, the press is beaten with a PF as often as it is with a single guard, and that is the safest way, anyhow.

Using the press as some reason to trade Kenny is pure exaggeration to prove an very arguable trade for a 4th guard. And it IS a 4th guard: SF, CM and Hawk. Moochie can rest Francis in the second quarter only just fine, and Mobley can rest him in the 2nd half, and Hawkins can rest Mobley both halves. Relying on Moochie only has to be dealt with when Francis or Mobley are out...and I'm not trading Kenny for some worry about injuries, when Hawkins is such a stud defender who can defend 3 positions.

 

HP,

If that is the case, then explain to me why Rudy always has either Steve or Moochie on the floor at all times? The Rockets do not try to break the press with a power forward. I wish they did but Rudy does not implement that strategy. The brunt of it falls on the PG to make the initial thrust past the defense. What you see in Hawk or Mobes bringing it up is if Steve or Mooch get in trouble and kick it to them at almost halfcourt, and they dribble it over the timeline and wait to kick it back to the PG after he crosses. Notice how when Hawk dribbles it over he kind of extends his hand as if to say "slow up" then passes it to Steve when he crosses the timeline. Steve and Moochie are atleast capable of doing this and not dribbling into a sideline trap like we would see MANY times in the preseason by Maddox and Brown. Rudy has shown zero signs of going with Hawk and Cat together even for half a quarter. This is VERY real problem, stop trying to downplay it with your fourth guard BS. Even when everyone is healthy, Moochie will get minutes b/c of this reason and that is not good for this team. Due to Moochie's suckiness, these will be reduced to about 8 per game, but that means Steve will play ATLEAST 40 every night. Not good.

 

You're seeing what I'm seeing, when I watch the game. They are passing to each other a lot. It doesn't look like the selfishness that others repeat over and over.

However, if KT really wants to be traded rather than come off the bunch (I don't think that is proven yet) then try to trade him, but it probably should be for a frontcourt defender at PF as no one else fits the bill on the Rockets except for Hawk and TMo at the SF.

 

It is definitely a difficult situation but one I would rather have us be in than last season.

The thing is that some players just don't ever feel like they are "bench players". I love KT and everything, but I wonder if he really feels like he is not a "bench player".

I agree with Dakota in that Mo Taylor needs to be starting over Griffin (at least until EG starts hitting consistently), and that if we could deal KT for a draft pick that would be a good thing.

I have been VERY disappointed in the lack of playing time for Nachbar so far this season.

To me, I think you can run into the problem of having too many quality "starter-type" guys. If you look at some of our teams in the mid 90's, it was pretty obvious who were the starters and who were the subs. The subs were role players and they were pretty dang good at what they did.

When you have a sub who feels that he should be one of the main options on offense instead of being a junk guy, then you are going to have a problem.

But I would love to see this rotation (this is with Mobley healthy):
SF - Rice, Nachbar
PF - Taylor, Griffin
C - Yao, Cato
SG - Mobley, Hawkins
PG - Francis, Moochie (ugh)

Collier and TMo would round out the rest of the active roster. Of course, this is assuming that KT is traded and that Eddie's shot is still MIA.

 

HP, mpg does not equal team minutes when one or more players miss one or more games. If you are talking about injury time, then fine. Otherwise, for a given game, the total PT is fixed at 240 min. If you are healthy and sitting on the bench, that means somebody else is getting "your" minutes.

Anyways, I don't think your question about who deserves more than 25 mpg is really relevant to the issue. DaDakoda pointed out that the issue is not who DESERVES, but who THINKS he deserves. If a player thinks he deserves more PT than the coach is giving him, there is a potential problem. If a player thinks he deserves to be a starter and the coach doesn't start him, there is a potential problem.

Thinking that he deserves to be a starter is different from wanting to be a starter. Thinking that he deserves to have more minutes is different from wanting more minutes. I agree that every player should WANT to start and WANT more PT. But thinking that he gets less than what he deserves means that he is having a problem with the coach's judgment. It means that he is not accepting the role the coach assigns to him.

 

*SIGH*


if only jalen rose were a team player.


heypee:

as for your last post, i agree wholeheartedly about quality benches being a virtual breeding ground for quality, competitive play. the kicker, of course, is whether those players can be convinced of so. imo, every one on the rockets bench can acquiesce to such...every one except for, well...you know.

we'll see...

on a side note, i am beginning to wonder how bad moochie has to play before cat starts playing some backup 1 and nachbar gains a few backup 2 guard minutes?

 

glynch,

I'm with ya. What I have been looking at closely is how many times a SF tries to guard Kenny. It has rarely ever happened with Griffin in since the season began. To me, the key to fitting Kenny into a new offensive role that makes longterm sense is to force the other team to guard him with a SF. That, as much as anything, is the best reason to bench him and match him with Maurice.

Easy,

<blockquote><hr><i> Anyways, I don't think your question about who deserves more than 25 mpg is really relevant to the issue. DaDakoda pointed out that the issue is not who DESERVES, but who THINKS he deserves.</i><hr></blockquote>
This issue is NOT about who "thinks he deserves" 25 minutes. All 4 of those players better think they deserve those minutes, otherwise trade them. You guys are making this some issue on your own in a manner that goes against minutes to date. You assume Kenny doesn't even deserve his 25 minutes, which means you think someone else does.

I think Kenny has deserved all his minutes. So does Rudy. Does anyone here believe Rice has deserved 25 minutes every game??? Rudy doesn't, either. Did anyone think Griffin deserved 34 minutes guarding Brand? Rudy didn't think so either. Did anyone think Mo deserved more than 28mpg as a starter two yrs ago; Rudy didn't either.

The question is not if Kenny deserves 25 mpg, because he does deserve it to date, just like he did backing up Maurice two yrs ago. The question is whether Kenny thinks he deserves *over 30*...and that applies to all 4 of those players. None of them do, and if any of them complain about it, Rudy needs to tell them to show it on the court.

 

KT FG% 44.8 2 assists/game 6.4 rebounds/game

MoT FG% 37.9 1 assist/game 3 rebounds/game


KT, like Mobley, is kind of struggling with how he fits in this offense but Mo Taylor is playing terrible basketball right now and he's a sieve defensively. I wonder if some of you actually watch games.

 

KT is obviously not happy but right now it doesn't look like he is crying about it or disrupting the team in any way. The thing to look at is if he continues to get 25 minutes per game then he will definately leave next year as a free agent. If he has no future on this team and the Rockets are not going to the NBA Finals then we should trade him to improve other areas of this team. Packaging Moochie and KT to acquire a solid backup PG will help this team more than KT could getting only 25 minutes a game.

 

HP,

I understand your "earn minutes by production" argument. I am not disputing with you about how much time each of the players should get. The issue is not whether I (or anyone on this board) agree with your thinking about PT. The issue is whether one or more of these players accept it.

For example, I agree that Kenny Thomas is the kind of player who deserves to play ~30 mpg ON SOME TEAMS. But he does not deserve it on THIS TEAM b/c of our depth and b/c of the kind of offense we want to run. The question is, does he accept it?

Actually, the one player I worry most about the whining problem is not Thomas or Taylor. It's Rice. What if his shooting cools off and is benched a lot? I am holding my breath, man.

BTW, I think the "5th amendment" comment is pretty bad if you take it seriously. I hope it was, as you said, just meant to be a light hearted banter.

 

Kenny does have a right to be upset. He had a pretty good year last year and is rewarded by going back to the bench AND not having his contract negotiated. He's handled it better than I would have, I'll say that much. However, he hasn't been a perfect angel, but who can blame him?

I hope KT enjoys being a Rocket, and I hope he wants to stay, but if not, he's definitely valuable to someone out there on the market.

 

I've said it before....Kenny is a cancer in the making. Houston should dump him before the malcontent ruins the chemistry that is forming.

 

Timing, I agree with you, my disappointment with indididuals thus far is running amok. But right now this team is going through major adjustments and it still makes more sense to me to wait until we've played 25-30 game before you trade anyone in our current rotation. Obviously the guys who want KT gone are jumping on this pretty tame article to furthur justify it, but if MoT, E.Griff. or Rice go down, KT seems pretty valuable. TMo looked great in preseason, but he's not a sure thing and only the coaching staff knows where Nachbar is. And the likelihood of Rice missing time at some point seems obvious. KT isn't happy but I don't think Rudy has the kind of contempt for KT's game some here do.

Other than Steve, Yao and Rice (last three games) I'm pretty unhappy with everyone's play, but it's only been 12 games and I don't understand some assertions that trading KT at midseason is worse than doing so now. I for one think he'd better get his numbers significantly up before we approach anyone about a trade anyway.

 

Toast, he had a decent year taking advantage of an ISO offense, but he clearly cannot work in a zone defense. He is a terrible outside shooter, that sometimes acts like a black hole with the ball. Yes he hustles, and plays decent defense.

Bottom line, HE IS A 2nd TEAM PLAYER!!. He has never been anything else. All he did was take the place for our injured starting PF last year. Did he think that Taylor would not want his job back? Did he think that the Rockets spent $48 million on a backup PF? Just as he whined about loosing his starting spot (when injured), does he see under those terms that Taylor gets his job back too? Did he think they traded (3) 1st round picks for a 3rd string PF? Did he get the point that he was a role player, when he did not get his extension?

Charles Barkley went to the bench, when Willis took over and I never heard him complain. He even went further to state that he wanted to be that spark plug off the bench, and did nothing but praise Willis. Would Thomas do that?

 

declan,

I am not a KT hater. I agree with you that we are in a major adjustment period and we should wait a little longer to get a better grip on how each individual plays out. (In fact, I think it's pretty good accomplishment that we are 7-5 with all these adjustments and chemistry issues floating around.)

But I kinda agree with the "trade KT" camp to some extent. I don't think everyone in this camp necessarily thinks KT is worthless. It's just a practical assessment. The argument is twofold.

1. There are too many good forwards on our team. It is certainly true that if injury happens to any of the forwards, KT's value will go up. But too much talents at one position has the potential problem of malcontent. That's the main thrust of this thread.

2. We are pretty thin in the guards department, especially in light of Moochie's poor games so far. With Moochie sucking, there is only one solid backup (Hawk) for two positions.

We have 5 players backing up 2 forward positions. Granted, Boki may not be ready, and TMo is rusty. It is arguable that even without KT, we can still afford to have one injury among the forwards. The same cannot be said about our current guards. Now that Mobley is hurt, the problem is quite clear. We have nobody reliable, other than Moochie, to handle the backup duty. And Francis might be worn out pretty soon.

So it a lot of sense to propose that we give up a good backup forward to get a good backup guard.

 

KT must go. Yesterday. He is in the way.

The Rockets need to prepare their young players for future playoff runs. This is more important than winning enough for an early exit now. KT impedes the progress of Griffin and Nachbar.
KT crushes the development of a Yao passing attack. KT has good footwork and moves, and plays with heart. Fine. He's no number 7 pick, not even a number 15, no Mc Donald's all-american talent. I'd rather see Taylor and Rice start with Griffin and Nachbar coming in for valuable experience whenever the coach can get them some positive play and learning against scrubs or starters who they Can match. You may love KT but he's in the way and if we screw up our opportunity with the draft picks to win a few with a spunky, undersized scrapper shame on us. You'll never get that chance back, and you've wasted and polluted your picks.

We desperately need another passing 3, and it might be Tmo, or Nachbar. The two of them can plug into the future. EVEN if they don't - we're better off finding out and then going shopping. KT has proven who he is and he will get you nowhere. KT couldn't give the ball to Shaq, and would wave off Kobe. Tell me a team where he fits in. I used to love this guy's hustle, but I am completely turned on him now.

 

now that's some hatin.

can't top that. well done pasox2. Don't know what you mean, but I got to love your passion and scrapping to get your points.

ps: nothing is more important to any rational interpretation of our future than a playoff run. n o t h i n g Early exit or not, just ask Stevie.

 

I brought this up a long time ago and people on this board blew me off. Its a bad combination no matter how you look at it. People want to compare our situation to that of the kings or mavs which is the furthest fromthe truth. Actually , our situation is closer to Portland and Seattle in the early 90's than anything. Here's the problem.

The rockets have Thomas,Taylor,Griffin,Nachbar,Morris,Rice,and Hawkins all playing 2 spots.Thomas,Taylor and Griffin are all incomplete 4's with none really being able to play center or 3 man effectively. Griffin is the best weakside shot blocker,Taylor is the best outside shooter and Thomas is the best post defender and rebounder. All 3 need playing time to display or see what can be gotten for them. Here is the real problem, the emergence of Yao Ming. At first, it was easy to give Taylor or Griffin time at the 5 when Ming was trying to adjust, but even with his last couple of sub par games, its clear that he is the most effecient scorer down low than all 3. So what happens.

You have 3 players playing just enough minutes to not really do anything or get into any kiind of flow. It also poses a problem in which i said Rudy would blow trying to appease everyone and basically dooing none any good. Griffin can't get enough minutes to see what we really have, Thomas is in a contract yr and needs the pts and rebs for a new contract and Taylor can't get enough to display for a future trade. The way Rice is playing and seeing he is our only 3 with experience, he is going no where soon. So what do the Rockets do?Addition by subtraction? Will they do it ? I don't know, but until this team is downsized players will have probems with gametime. How would i do it? I'd give a couple of teams a call. #1 would be phoenix. i would tell them to give me penny hardaway for a combination of Mobley, Cato , and Thomas. Without checking the math, I'm pretty sure this will work. This would give us a player who wouldn't dominate the ball, could take Francis off the ball but still maintain the size needed to play bigger teams. For phoenix it would give them a backup to Big jake,a swing player in the last yr of his contract in thomas, and a backcourt mate for Marbury. Cato and Penny contract has the same length to it.

Another team i would call is cleveland. I would ask Mihm and Hill for Taylor and Thomas.Taylor will give them a 4 and thomas a backup 4,Hill will give us a backup rebounder in the last yr of his contract and a 1yr rental in Mihm. Either way you go and spin it, if players on the frontline keep getting limited minutes even though they think they deserve it, they will be unhappy and the 1st losing streak of the season will put this team in the same category as the blazers. Talented, deep team with no chemistry.

 

<blockquote><hr>You have 3 players playing just enough minutes to not really do anything or get into any kiind of flow. <hr></blockquote>Leebigez,

Did you hear Bill Worrell ask Calvin point blank what he thought of your above philosophy? Calvin said that is a cop-out, that they are getting plenty of minutes to do something. Basically saying, if you can't get into any flow immediately with the guys you live with and practice with all the time...more minutes is not the answer.