EDIT: by honest assesment, I'm hoping the discussion can lead to that. I didn't mean to suggest that my thoughts below are the end all be all of Shane Battier's value. looking to hear other's thoughts on this. I really want to get a sense of what Shane actually brings to this team. In my opinion, Shane Battier is by far the most over valued player in the eyes of the fans. That being said, I know that he has a lot of very strong supporters. What bothers me is that while other players are criticized harshly for a poor string of games, or shooting the ball poorly, Battier always seems to do very little, yet he always seems to get a free pass. He is a sub par offensive player. He has been since his rookie season, which was the only year he scored more than 10 points per game. Offensively, he seems content to spot up and do nothing. It is painful to watch him try to create off the dribble, and he has no post game, even when he has a mismatch down low. His shooting from the outside is solid, but not spectacular, especially considering that most of his shots are open looks created for him by other players. He's actually shooting less than 40% from the field this year. Shooting this poorly is usually reserved for players like Allen Iverson who are notorious for inefficiency and awful shot selection, not a spot up shooter. I also don't think it's just about his inability to score himself. Chuck Hayes isn't the greatest finisher, but I've seen him make some excellent bounce passes to cutters this year. He seems to take an active role in the offense, even though he doesn't score that much. Battier's strength has always allegedly been his defense. While I think he's a good team defender, he certainly isn't an impact defensive player, at least not anymore, if he ever was. A few years ago, his calling card was that he always guarded the other team's best perimeter player, so T-Mac could focus his energy on offense. The perception was that he could take the other team's best wing out of the game, similarly to the way a lock down corner can take away a top receiver in football. Battier apologist's even went so far as to suggest that we lost to the Jazz in the playoffs because there was no one for Shane to guard. I just don't think that he can make the kind of impact defensively to justify his lack of offensive production. He certainly isn't the lock down defender that his supporters portray him as. This is not a knee jerk reaction to tonight's game, but look at Wade tonight: -Argument that Shane forces opponents to take poor percentage shots in order to get their points. Wade shot 15 of 24 for 37 points. He had no chance to stay in front of Wade. -Argument that Shane keeps his man from getting others involved. Wade had 8 assists, tops on his team. I know this is Dwayne Wade, one of the best offensive players in the league, but if Shane can't at least slow down these guys, then what is he bringing to the table. Is his role to play lock down defense on average NBA players? And, it's not just Wade. Against Charlotte, Stephen Jackson torched us for 43 points on 15 of 22 shooting. A team with a true defensive stopper would never allow that to happen. In a game earlier this year, Carmelo lit up the Rockets. Some made the argument that he got hot when T-Mac came into the game. That shouldn't matter. A true defensive stopper should be someone that you can throw on a guy any time and expect him to make a difference. I understand that he is a leader on the court and that he makes plays that don't show up on the stat sheet. I see him dive for loose balls, and tip balls into the backcourt for offensive rebounds. I think he's a great teammate and want him to be part of this team winning. I just don't know that these contributions outweigh the areas that he's lacking in. The intangibles argument is one that I think gets thrown around way too lightly. It's become such a cliche, that it doesn't hold that much weight for me anymore. I guess what I want to know is when does Shane Battier actually get held accountable for his play?
It would be nice if for once, in the history of this entire BBS, that we could hear someone compare Battier's strengths and weaknesses equally in the same post. Maybe we'll get that in this thread. I do think he's overvalued, not everywhere just on this board (actually, he's undervalued nationally). Still, he's a great perimeter defender who understands his limitations.
He knows his role on this team, which is to demonstrate leadership on and off the court. He plays hard and with 100% intensity every game and never gives up, setting himself up to be a great role model. We all know that he has a below average offensive game, and that he has been that way consistently. The good thing is, he knows his limit, and doesn't try to do things he normally wouldn't do, like create off the dribble. What he brings to this team is leadership, as mentioned earlier, as well as defence. He may have lost a step in his defence, but it is still nonetheless well above average, and along with his decent 3-point shooting, in my opinion, he turns out to be a decent player in the NBA. He had a couple bad defensive games against Wade and Jackson, but it happens to everyone. Like you mentioned, one can argue that his flaws overshadow what he brings. Well, to be honest, those flaws wouldn't be noticeable if he we had 1 or 2 all-star players on the team that are playing (ie: Yao and Tracy). Superstar and allstar players make the game easier for everyone around them. If Shane was on a team like the Lakers, he would continue to do what he does, only his flaws would outweigh what he brings because of players like Kobe and Gasol to lead the team. Overall, we need Shane on this team. Even if we don't do well this year, when we hopefully sign a decent free agent and get Yao back, we will likely get the best out of Battier.
this "honest" assessment is no different than an assessment from someone with the opposite view...it's been beaten to death countless times. From what Morey says, battier wir worth being out there right now... I will say you're underrating his passing. You talk about chuck making some nice passes, but battier is the player who consistently makes an effort to get the ball down low to scola or landry at the right time. He's made a lot of good entry passes that lead to good scores by those two. It's not anything fancy, but he's aware of who should be getting the ball, which is often lacking with other guys. "He;s not an impact defender anymore"...he may not be the defender he used to be, but to say he's not making any impact is incorrect. The guy just came off a block part against Minnesota, which may only be one game, but it just happened and yet you can't recall that? But Wade's 37 points are fresh in your mind, and that too is just one game of many. Battier has had his rough games defensively, but he's also had significant defensive contributions throughout the season, to say he's not making an impact at all is as crazy as saying DA would have zero impact this season. This is a knee jerk reaction, just like the next game he has 5 blocks (he's our leading shot blocker as swingman by the way) one of his supporters will claim he's the defensive player of the year. The truth is somewhere in between.
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Agree with op I really believe shane hurts more than he helps, players can just rest on him on defense because he just stands in the corner and they still score on him when ever they want but yet people will still make excuses for him because he's a nice guy, but there's a reason he doesn't fill up that stat sheet in any category the guy sucks, but Morey values effort more than talent so he'll probly be starting for the next five years.
In all honesty, that's not possible from a fans perspective. I know i'm be labeled a battier supporter for it, but the truth is his contributions go beyond the stats AND the court. We saw how he's helped out budinger and hopefully taylor as well, but that's not something we have access to all the time. How many fans actually pay attention to the bench, to the timeouts, to everyithing outside the 48 mins of basketball? That's something i've always watched and i said the same of Brent Barry last year, he coached his ass off off the court. Barry deserves some credit for the emergence of landry and brooks because that guy was constantly on them. He was there after missed layups and free throws patting them on the back while he talked to them all the way to the bench or the locker room. Unfortunately his body was too old to continue on the court, but i think he was worth his one year here regardless. you can't replace that many years of experience that easily. Battier does many of the same things, why else would morey keep him around, seriously? Do we honestly believe that all battier does it miss shots and stand around? Wouldnt morey be an idiot to keep him around if that were true? Is morey an idiot? Let's think about that for a second....there's obviously more to it than we can see or even comprehend.
I didn't mean to suggest that he's not having any impact at all. Elite/game changing defender is what I had in mind. Guys like Olajuwon, Mutombo and Gary Payton in the past, as well as Artest with the Pacer's, and Dwight Howard recently had an "impact" on how their opponent's would play every game. Team's had to modify game plans to deal with those guys. I don't think Shane is anywhere close to being that kind of defender. After Shane's 5 blocks against Minnesota, there were lots of posts along the lines of Shane looked "springy" tonight, and Shane challenged everything tonight. If he is a shot blocker, why isn't that a regular part of his game?
Sorry, I meant ON COURT strengths and weaknesses. I see it discussed with nearly every other player. Why not Battier?
Sorry, I was hoping that the discussion would lead to an honest assesment of what he brings to the court, not necessarily that my viewpoint is the only one. What I posted is what I honestly believe. I mentioned what I think are Shane's strengths, which in my opinion aren't as numerous as most of Battier's supporters.
I'm sorry, but I feel like this is a bit of a cliche. This was a top 5 defensive team before he got here. It was a top 5 defensive team after we traded for him. This year with Yao out, the team a a whole has dropped off defensively.
There was zero help defense for Wade. Zero. Zip. Nada. None. Zilch. Battier can make a good effort to keep Wade a jump shooter, but he's going to often get a step on ANYONE IN THE LEAGUE. When he gets that step and drives, there MUST be help defense. There was ABSOLUTELY NONE tonight, and he got a boatload of layups and free throws. You cannot pin it on Shane alone, you pin it on the entire team. Again, letting Wade get deep into the paint with zero help defense lets him create rather easily.
Most of the guys you mentioned are traditional shot blockers, big men. Those are guys you plan for, i dont think teams ever plan for perimeter defenders as much, even gary payton. Big men get a shot at defending almost everyone ont he court at some point, they get players funneled to them, which is why teams must plan significantly for them. That doesnt happen with perimeter defenders. the players who are likely to be guarded by the perimeter defender are the ones who will adjust and that definitely has happened with players battier has guarded, they talked about it publicly. He averages a block a game, i'm not sure how that isn't a "regular" part of his game by definition. blocks are not averaged in bunches, 2-3 are considered good for a big man, so one is pretty good for a perimeter defender. If you want to definte "shot blocker" literally, then i guess he is since he's consistently getting one a game, but he's not a traditional NBa shot blocker, that's usually resevers for big men.
all that means is a big man , yao or deke, are a bigger part of the defense, it doesnt mean battier is a smaller, yet still significant, part of it.
