Either start Lin, or bring in a new starting PG, Bev ain't cuttin' it.

Well perhaps you should read the OP and what this thread is about lmao before posting on this thread.

 

You know I give credit to play07, he may be a big fan of Lin; but he came around to understand that the problem was not Lin vs Bev... He realized that the problems start from the top...

We may not agree about some things, but now he has come around to understand some other things... He's not just looking at this as Lin only, he's looking at things as a Rockets team in whole...

You on the other hand are just pure Lin only.. Lin is not a better defender than Bev... Now if we are talking about offense, that's a different story...

T_Man

 

Off the bench Lin avg 4.2 apg

 

How many asset did he have during garbage time... There's a lot that you have to calculate...

I'm not saying that Lin cannot pass the ball.... Again, i'm saying that Lin will not have great assist stats with the current offense.

In order to have good assist stats you have to have the ball in your hand. In this offense the ball will primarily be in Harden's hand. Right now Lin has the opportunity to run the show with him coming off the bench and Harden has to sit. That gives Lin some time to be the man and do his thing. If Lin starts he will lose that free time and also lose a lot more touches.

T_Man

 

Assists are a huge straw man in this debate (and I suspect you know this), but whatever, here are the "deceptive" numbers thus far in the season:

Assists/36
Beverley: 2.5
Lin: 5.3


AST%
Beverley: 10.6
Lin: 24.0


There is a huge difference between not being in a system that doesn't give a PG a lot of assist attempts and being an offensive non-factor entirely.

Look, I don't want to turn this into an us-or-them argument. I, for one, think that the two sides of this discussion are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, the system in place heavily defers to Harden's playmaking ability and largely leaves the ball in his hands. This means that the typical PG role is subverted, in the sense that any PG on the team will not have the same number of opportunities to generate assists and handle the ball in general. (Cue the never-ending, over-simplified "Lin and Harden have overlapping skills and are therefore UNPOSSIBLE to play together 4EVAR" analysis.)

That being said, you still need guys on the floor who are offensive threats to, at the bare minimum, make an open shot if they are left undefended. Maybe you don't need the PG to have 10 assists per game, but you do need him to make buckets when the ball is passed his way. Last year, Beverley put up good enough numbers to play that role. This year, he has quite frankly been mediocre at best, and a black hole at worst.

Here are his numbers so far in the season:

FG%: .418
3P%: .337
eFG%: .505
TS%: .532

These are not good numbers, period. For anyone, playing any position, in any system. They are unacceptable if you are attempting to field a contending team, because you need everyone on the floor to be at least enough of a threat to command single-man defensive attention.

Beverley has been putting up such bad numbers that he can effectively be left alone, allowing defenses to sag him in to the paint and help/double up against Harden and Howard. This, in turn, makes those guys have to work harder to get their shots off. This has long-term effects, because those players now have to work harder and play longer minutes in order to get the same overall level of production for the team. And, as mentioned before, in the playoffs it just plain won't work because weaknesses are magnified and strengths are game-planned against.

 

Watching Patrick Beverly played a few games this season, he is simply not a point guard. He could be a great off the bench defender that you can put on other team's star point guard I guess, he lacks the court vision or the play making skills a point guard needs.

 

I said Bev is better than Lin on D overall. I also said against small/quicker PGs Bev is very good. Maybe even elite on D. Against taller/stronger PGs Bev D is often ineffective and often worst than Lin.

Now if you disagree with what I wrote above that just means you are either a Bev homer, a lin hater, or knows nothing about basketball. And I've said this above from the start. I have never said Lin is a better defender than Bev just what is written above. I also back up all my claims with facts.


12/20 against the Pacers

Bev 30 minutes
Hill scored 12 points on 5/8, 62.5 FG%
Watson scored 8 points on 3/3, 100 FG%
Sloan scored 2 points on 1/1, 100 FG%
Total PGs 22 points on 9/12, 75 FG%

12/15 against the Kings
Bev 31 minutes
Isiah Thomas scored 19 points on 7/12, 58 FG%

12/4 against the Suns
Bev 42 minutes
Bledsoe/Dragic scored 39 points on 13/25, 52 FG%

12/2 against the Jazz
Bev 38 minutes
Burke/Burks scored 42 points on 19/29, 65.5 FG%

11/30 against the Spurs
Bev 37 minutes
Parker scored 27 points on 13/27, 48.1 FG%

11/20 against the Mavs
Bev 37 min
Calderon/Larkin scored 21 points on 7/13, 53.8 FG%

11/16 against the Nuggets
Bev 27 minutes
Lawson 28 points on 11/19, 57.8 FG%

11/13 against the SixersBev 42 minutes
Andersen 36 points on 12-16, 75 FG%
Wroten 18 points, 10 reb, 11 asts

Who did the incredible Bev stop?

In the playoffs without Lin playing and Bev starting with starter min

Playoffs

Game 3

Reggie Jackson 25 min, 14 points, 3-6, 50% FG
Derrick Fisher 24 min, 9 points, 3-6, 50% FG
PGs 23 points on 50% FG

Game 4

Beverly played 37 minutes
Reggie Jackson, 18 points, 7-18, 39 FG%
Derrick Fisher, 12, points, 4-7, 57 FG%
PGs 30 points, 44% FG

Game 5
Beverly played 39 minutes
Jackson, 20 points, 7-15, 47 FG%
Fisher, 8 points, 2-6, 33.3 FG%
PGs 28 points, 42.8 FG%

Games 6
Jackson, 17 points, 7-15, 46.6 FG%
Fisher, 11 points, 4-6, 66.66 FG%
PGs, 28 points 52.3 FG%

 

Rockets since the 90s, Lin is just my favorite player on the team because I like underdogs in sports, he plays with energy, good guy off court, & doesn't take plays off. Cassell was fav one back in the days for some of he same reasons

Back to the topic I know what all this starting pg stuff is about from morey. But it can affect the team as a whole if certain moves never get made that he had planned. & it looks like things are not going to go like he had planned

 

Yes, yes and yes! Defenses are practically daring Bev to shoot and with those numbers who can blame them. I said last week it feels like we are playing 4 against 5 on offense and I stand by that. Yes, Bev will get hot every few games or so but it isn't enough to consistently win.

 

Lin doesn't play garbage time. McHale doesn't let Lin pad his stats. If there is garbage time he brings in Brooks.

Lin would avg 7-8 apg starting on this team with Howard/Harden starting if Lin plays 35 mpg and is healthy.

It's obvious

 

It's incredible Lin averaged over 6 assists a game plying with Harden last year. The one thing Lin can do is pass and if you watch the games they are not in garbage time.

The big problem is ISO/black hole Harden. If the ball isn't always in his hands he couldn't ISO and if he's having a bad game the PG will know he should be passing it to someone else.

 

I need to frame this. People think that Bev is an incredible defender bc he plays pesky defensive and rattles the guy he's guarding. He even comes up with some beautiful steals or blocks once in a while. But the overall result most of the time isn't that he shuts down opposing players. As your stats show, he gives up some huge lines to some not so huge players even. It all comes down to the famous eye test that makes it look like Bev is such a great defender.

 

See this is turning into a Bev vs Lin thing and I want get into that...

The problem is not with Bev or Lin, it's with the team playing as a team. When they play as a team they are capable of beating anyone in this league..

When they go into this iso thing and start listening to the media and take things personal they end being run out of the gym.

I will not get into this Lin vs Bev thing, because people are pissed that Bev is starting and Lin. As i keep stating it doesn't really matter who starts as long they run the current iso offense no pg, present or future will be able to show their true potential and succeed.

T_Man

 

But the list of avg PGs who destroys Bev gets longer and longer as time passes so this list would be too incomplete after just a week or two.

Bev is just a 3rd string PG who is a defensive specialist who is lionized as an elite 1st strong PG by some Lin haters.

If Lin wasn't here those same people defending Bev would want him to come off the bench as a defensive specialist pretty much right away.

 

I watched it and regardless of points allowed, Bev was nearly invisible on D last night. He is NOT the defender that he was last year....

 

I told you before read the OP and realize which thread you're in...

 

Stats don't tell the full story, you're right about that. The thread is about Beverley and the OP thought Beverley's not cutting it as a point guard. It's put Lin in or get someone else so that's why Lin's play is relevant and stats are used. But it's true they don't tell the whole story.

You're arguing Harden shouldn't run the show as much and the team needs better ball movement, which is true. But it isn't exactly the subject of this thread.

 

If it doesn't matter who starts, how about we bring Harden off the bench but still play him 30 min a game. Lin could start with Bev and we have Bev's lock down D and Lin's better ball sharing abilities. I guarantee you that D12 and Parsons will get more touches with that starting lineup. Then we bring Harden in to pour on the scoring against the other teams second squad and he can play Harden D against the second squad and not get torched as much. Solution to our problem. All in agreement?

 

and he wasn't that good of a defender last year. He just got a "legendary defender" label because he clumsily ran into an all nba PG who was clearly calling a time out and made Westbrook miss the playoffs.

Playoffs

Game 3
Reggie Jackson 25 min, 14 points, 3-6, 50% FG
Derrick Fisher 24 min, 9 points, 3-6, 50% FG
PGs 23 points on 50% FG

Game 4
Beverly played 37 minutes
Reggie Jackson, 18 points, 7-18, 39 FG%
Derrick Fisher, 12, points, 4-7, 57 FG%
PGs 30 points, 44% FG

Game 5
Beverly played 39 minutes
Jackson, 20 points, 7-15, 47 FG%
Fisher, 8 points, 2-6, 33.3 FG%
PGs 28 points, 42.8 FG%

Games 6
Jackson, 17 points, 7-15, 46.6 FG%
Fisher, 11 points, 4-6, 66.66 FG%
PGs, 28 points 52.3 FG%

 

That's ok. I have a few more extra frames sitting around. And if we keep starting Bev, I can fill them pretty quickly. :grin: