As much greatness as John Lennon shed on the world with his music and his supposed peace/love propaganda, this guy is a horrible father. Case in point...he had a beautiful son in his own image, Julian, who looked like his father, had his father's love for music and talents, etc. . Instead of take on the responsibilities of raising a child like any father should do, what did he do...he basically acted like Julian never existed at all. He lived with him only a few years way early in life but hardly as we was touring most of the time....and saw him only a handful of times thereafter. This terrible father then goes on to have another kid with that Yuko Ono, Sean. I believe he was polluted by Yoko as Julian believes. However, how anyone can be polluted against their own flesh and blood is almost impossible to comprehend. All Julian ever wanted was John to be his father. Instead, he had to take on another father whom his mother hooked up with later. As much as John did for music with the Beatles, I will never remember him in a good light because, even after all these years after his death, all I ever hear about him is how he dissed Julian. No real human being can diss their own flesh and blood...you have to have a semblance of sub-human in you to do such a thing. Therefore, when I think of John, I think of a talented musician who was a horrible father and, for all the love and peace he preached to the world, he could not live by his own words even with his own family...so how could he have meant any of it at all. The answer...he couldn't of...it was all BS. Now, whether Yuko is to blame or not...that is another story. Everyone asks Julian everything about John like he is the repository of information on his father. The truth is...he knew the man little more than you or I know someone we say "Hi" to in passing. Therefore, Julian came out on 12/04 to basically tell people to quit asking him about his father..because he just doesn't know the guy. He does know the guy was a horrible father...for whatever hidden reason...who didn't live by his own beliefs of peace and love. Therefore, I nominate John as worse famous father ever. Sorry John...you earned it. You made some terrible decisions in your life...who knows if you would have ever changed if you weren't shot. I highly doubt it, though. Maybe that is why you payed the ultimate price in the end. Surf ------------------
Surf, Did you ever read about John's childhood? His father was never around. He was a merchant seaman. John's mother was hit by a bus and killed when he was 14. His father never came back (until John hit the big time) John was brought up by his mother's sister. John always talked about what a bum his father was, and when he came around after John was famous, he told him to get lost. So it was actually the environment he was brought up in, not Yoko, that influenced him as an adult. If you have never listened to the John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band album/CD, I highly recomend it. He was going through Primal Therapy when he made this album. It is raw emotion, he holds nothing back. One of the greatest album's of all time (if not the greatest) ------------------ When we tire of well-worn ways, we seek for new. This restless craving in the souls of men spurs them to climb, and to seek the mountain view. -- Ella Wheeler Wilcox [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited December 07, 2000).]
Julian was born to Cynthia and John during the height of Beatlemania. I can cut him some slack. He was the famous-est person on earth during Julian's early years. The biggest rock star of all. I'm not saying he should be excused for ignoring Julian, but I understand. I probably wouldn't wanna spend much time with the wife and kids either if I were a Beatle in 1966. He did attempt to be a better father to Sean. There's no excuse for John's treatment of Julian. Still, there MUST be some father who was worse than Julian. I'd hazard a guess that some member of cc.net has worse stories to tell about his own father. Lots of men are poor fathers. Julian still had a caring mother, the Lennon name and looks, and the Lennon cash. Fathers abandon children all the time all over the world without any of the advantages John gave Julian.
I remember this time my Dad b**** slapped me because I was mouthing off to my Mom. Deserved both backhands! So, I guess I'm trying to say that my Dad's better than John Lennon. ------------------ "He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill visit www.swirve.com and, http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000 for great Rocket insight by some of your fellow BBS posters!
The worst thing John Lennon ever did to Julian Lennon was..... Failing to teach him how to write good songs!!!! ------------------ I am the b*stard son of LHutz. Huh? Right!
Mother John Lennon Mother, you had me, but I never had you I wanted you, you didn't want me So I, I just got to tell you Goodbye, goodbye Father, you left me, but I never left you I needed you, you didn't need me So I, I just got to tell you Goodbye, goodbye Children, don't do what I have done I couldn't walk and I tried to run So I, I just got to tell you Goodbye, goodbye Mama don't go Daddy come home ------------------ When we tire of well-worn ways, we seek for new. This restless craving in the souls of men spurs them to climb, and to seek the mountain view. -- Ella Wheeler Wilcox
I think you're speculating on a lot of things that you can't possibly know enough about to really understand. What you know about John Lennon is what some writer or some interested party wanted you to know.
Umm...Brian...that assumption is incorrect. I speak from Julian's own words he wrote on his website on 12/04. I am speaking from Julian interviews on television. I am taking what he said and interpreting it as the worse famous father I know. John tops the list thus far. There may be others...this is famous fathers...mind you...that are in the limelight. I am not speaking from some other writer's words. I do not claim to know everything....but according to Julian himself there is not much to know....because Dad was never around. Even with the popularity of the Beatles, that doesn't excuse John's actions. I know that Led Zeppelin was really popular back in the day when Robert Plant had his kid and he didn't diss his kid. John could have done way better. And, just because John's father was just as bad, that does not automatically make John become a bad father. I agree that it didn't bode well for John as a father, however. According to Julian, his father never even made the slightest attempts to keep in touch. That is inexcusable from a father-son perspective. Surf ------------------ [This message has been edited by Surfguy (edited December 07, 2000).]
People much more educated than me have suggested that as adults we most easily will reflect the same relationship we had with our parents. John Lennon is one of the very few "celebrity-type people" who I grew to idolize as a youngster and learn about as I grew older. I have first editions of his first two books and have travelled to see his "art school era" exhibitions. I have read almost every printed reference to him. That doesn't give me more of an opinion than anyone, but it does show that I have put effort into the excercise of learning about him. Lennon's family life was (as BobFinn suggested) very tumultuous. His father was absent most of his life, and it is true his mother deprived him of his father's company by refusing to allow John's father to have custody of him. Then, his mother basically (hell ... not basically ... she DID) abandoned him also, sending him to live with his aunt (his mother's sister). John's father figures during this time was a real father who he was told had left him, a sickly elderly uncle who died a short couple of years after John came to live with them, a couple of Juia's (his mother's) steady boyfriends who Juia spoke of but never seemed to hang around long, and Julia's husband who would have nothing to do with John from the get-go. Certainly not an excuse for his behavior towards Julian, but a reasonably predictable reaction. In the final eight months prior to his death, he became very close to Julian, writting several letters ti him where he came to grips with his poor fatherhood. He had him staying with John, Yoko and Sean at the Dakota for a while. A letter to Cynthia (Julian's Mom) written by John spoke of his failings and asking for understanding about who he was way back then .... Again, this is not to excuse his behavior, but to understand that a man becomes a father only when he accepts the responsibility. John did not know how to do that for a great majority of his life. When he learned to do that, he tried to make amends. ------------------
From the John Lennon Playboy interview published in 1981: PLAYBOY: Your son, Julian, from your first marriage must be in his teens. Have you seen him over the years? LENNON: Well, Cyn got possession, or whatever you call it. I got rights to see him on his holidays and all that business, and at least there's an open line still going. It's not the best relationship between father and son, but it is there. He's 17 now. Julian and I will have a relationship in the future. Over the years, he's been able to see through the Beatle image and to see through the image that his mother will have given him, subconsciously or consciously. He's interested in girls and autobikes now. I'm just sort of a figure in the sky, but he's obliged to communicate with me, even when he probably doesn't want to. PLAYBOY: You're being very honest about your feelings toward him to the point of saying that Sean is your first child. Are you concerned about hurting him? LENNON: I'm not going to lie to Julian. Ninety percent of the people on this planet, especially in the West, were born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night, and there was no intent to have children. So 90 percent of us -- that includes everybody -- were accidents. I don't know anybody who was a planned child. All of us were Saturday-night specials. Julian is in the majority, along with me and everybody else. Sean is a planned child, and therein lies the difference. I don't love Julian any less as a child. He's still my son, whether he came from a bottle of whiskey or because they didn't have pills in those days. He's here, he belongs to me and he always will. ------------------ When we tire of well-worn ways, we seek for new. This restless craving in the souls of men spurs them to climb, and to seek the mountain view. -- Ella Wheeler Wilcox [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited December 07, 2000).]
First off... The worst thing John Lennon ever did to Julian Lennon was..... Failing to teach him how to write good songs!!!! Julian Lennon's last album, Photograph Smile, was brilliant. Actually, Sean is the one that really needs help in that department, but he's probably just taking after his mom. Now, I personally like Julian Lennon a lot as a musician. What I find interesting about all these posts is that we are quick to explain away John's actions because of an abusive childhood. I agree that it definitely played a significant role, however, that doesn't excuse him. How often has the tumultuous life of a total stranger been the reason for the abandonment of their child? How often have we, as a society, been quick to send them to prison? Many of us on this board, I assume, had parents that were inept, disinterested, unavailable, uncaring, overly harsh, downright mean or otherwise. Does the fact that their childhood reflected their behavior with us make it hurt any less? Second, even when Julian was just a child, John treated him poorly. In fact, Julian actually lived with Paul and Linda McCartney for quite some time because they felt bad about how John treated him and wanted to give him some stability. John, in fact, was openly rude to him and, even worse, totally ignored him most of the time. That is the worst thing you can do to a child. It is nearly as bad as phyical abuse. Just because he didn't want him doesn't mean he wasn't responsible for him. As a result of Julian's time with the McCartney's, "Hey Jude" was born as a way for Paul to tell Julian, "Everything will be ok." - Take a sad song and make it better. In fact, Julian has said that Paul was more of a father to him than John and that Hey Jude helped him through some very rough times. The fact is that John loved Sean because he loved Yoko and he didn't care for Julian because he represented something he disliked in himself. I just find it ironic that the man so supposedly enamoured with and driven by peace and love would be so sour towards his own child. Additionally, Julian has had to fight in court for nearly every dime of his inheritence because Yoko attempted to spend much of it before it made it to Julian's door. About 5 years ago, a court placed an injunction against Yoko and ordered her to pay MILLIONS in back inheritence to Julian and Julian's mother. Yoko tried to refuse and the court had to threaten to seize her assets before she relented. John was a schmuck. He was brilliant as a Beatle although I'm not a big fan of his solo work. But, like anyone who gains the type of fame the Beatles did, they got caught up in it all. I know several different people who've met and even worked with (musically) all of the members of the Beatles including Lennon. They all say that Ringo was the only one worth knowing because he was the only one who wasn't a pompous ass. No real surprise. Fame has a tendency to do that. I just don't believe that John really deserves slack for the way he behaved. He deserves to be held accountable like anyone else. He didn't fulfill his responsiblitly as a father and his son suffered because of it. No matter what we think about John, his music, his politics or his life, his shabby treatment of Julian, while not enough to cause me to dislike his music, is certainly enough to make me think the guy was not a shining example of parenthood OR peace and love. ------------------ Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.
Your point, Brian? If I had specific writings and quotes from that person which I could draw conclusions from, I would know some about her to where I could form my own viewpoints. We do not have that from you or her so your point is meaningless. I don't understand what you are attempting to do here, Brian. Are you saying we cannot formulate opinions on people with information from their own mouths? Obviously we can. But, yes...they are subjective in nature. If you don't like em, then don't read em. We are not forcing it down your throats. Just ignore it, then. Fine. Surf ------------------ [This message has been edited by Surfguy (edited December 07, 2000).]
Surf, Taking everything Julian says as absolute fact is no different than others taking John's own words as absolute fact. The truthe is that he was no different than many people today. That doesn't make it right, though. John led a life that no one could fully comprehend. He was quite young when he and Cynthia had Julian. Their relationship did not work out and he did not get custody. What happened to John's life after Julian was born was quite chaotic. No single musician alive could comprehend what that life is like. John was a kid when Julian was born. He grew up rather quickly between '63 and '70. He found true love and went on to make sure that Sean would not have to go through what he and Julian did. In fact, in the early '70s Yoko threw him out of the house and forced a separation between the two so that he could "get it out of his sytem" and grow up. During this time John lived in LA living the "Rock God" lifestyle. He was a mess and he knew it. HE begged to come home and she would never let him. It wasn't until John performed with Elton John at MSG in NY did Yoko finally allow him home. By that time he cleaned up his act and was ready to be a responsible husband. John made a bet with Elton that if "Whatever Get's You Through The Night", in which Elton recorded with him, went #1 that he'd do some songs with Elton at one of his performances. Yoko, unannounced showed up that night at the show. John completely gave up music from '75 to '80. He turned over all business operations to Yoko and he became a house-husband. He was there with Sean every single minute of his first 5 years. If you listen to Double Fantasy you will hear how much love he had for his family. "Beautiful Boy" is an incredibly touching song. Everyone makes mistakes but don't you dare try and label him as a "bad father" overall because it simply is not true. We all make mistakes but not all of us identify our mistakes to make sure that they never happen again. Julian did not have a traumatic life as a boy. What was traumatic for him is having to grow up in his father's shadow. His resentment grew and grew as the 80's went on. His music was not being taken seriously and that really got to him. Hope this helps to change your view on this situation. John WAS a good man, an incredible man. It just so happens that he made mistakes just like the rest of us humans. ------------------
I said he was a Jekyll and Hyde father...so that leaves room for some good. I don't take what Julian says as pure fact and that's it. He obviously has some bias against his father. John has said some pretty incriminating stuff himself even if he didn't intend to. I don't buy into your statement about this being a Julian resented his father because of the music kind of thing. The kid wanted a father figure and he did not get that in John. Why should we take what you say as fact? I'm not asking anyone to take what I say as fact...I'm just voicing my opinion. You certainly can try to sway my opinion although you may be unsuccessful. I will agree that he did become a better father when Sean came into his life. However, from Julian's perspective, he still didn't get much from his supposed father even then. I think it's clear that John was anything but perfect except maybe in his music. A lot of it probably has to do with his maturity level, being really famous, and being dissed by his own father. Of course, that does not make it right. I think he failed Julian when he needed a father. And, if Yoko had to force him to be a better father by throwing him out, then I have an even worse opinion of him now than before. I stand by my opinion...and don't you dare try to tell me how to stand . Surf ------------------
I don't dispute or even try to justify his actions in the early to mid 60s. I agree that he made some bad decisions. What I don't agree with is your sweeping judgement of him as a father overall. "...who knows if you would have ever changed if you weren't shot. I highly doubt it, though." That statement is completely incorrect. From 1975 on, he was an excellent father. A father that all of us would have been lucky to have. ------------------
Jeff, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as I am to mine. So here it is... I've heard all of Julian Lennon's work, including Photograph Smile. Brilliant is not the word I would use to describe it. "Contrived" is more accurate, IMHO. I wouldn't drop a dime on any CD Julian or Sean ever made. They are both about as whitebread as a loaf of Mrs. Bairds' can get. ------------------ I am the b*stard son of LHutz. Huh? Right!
There again...your talking about Sean only. The damage was already done to Julian...you cannot turn back the clock. Sure, if we truncate pre-Sean, then he is an excellent father...supposedly. But, even then, Yoko had to coerce him(by throwing him out and getting his priorities straight) to be a proper father even then. You can't say statements like that for judging a father overall. Let's just ignore all the wrongs he did and start with Sean. That doesn't work for me. I don't believe he went far enough to reconcile with Julian, either. Or else why would Julian still have such anger toward his father? He was never a father to Julian...that's why. If you think he is an excellent father, than that is your opinion. I cannot buy into that. He began behaving like a proper father should after a while...I agree with that but it's not enough to reverse the damage done. Surf ------------------
Who knows, maybe if he wouldn't have been murdered, he would have made amends for his past mistakes. It sure sounds like that was what he wanted to do. Dude's been dead for 20 years. ------------------ "He was under more balls than a midget hooker."-Bobby Hill visit www.swirve.com and, http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000 for great Rocket insight by some of your fellow BBS posters!
