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Winston: (Kevin Durant) What a Difference a Year Makes

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by durvasa, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=286

    Wayne Winston, former Mavs employee who's most well known for his adjusted +/- ratings and noted critic of Kevin Durant before this season, says that so far this year Durant has made a complete turnaround in terms of team impact.

    By the more conventional stats, Durant's production has improved pretty much across the board. But what Winston's results suggest is something beyond those conventional stats. Defensively, he's gone from near the bottom in impacting his team's play to near the top.

    Nothing but a statistical fluke in Winston's methodology, or is this capturing a real improvement on Durant's part that goes beyond the boxscore?

    Basketballvalue has its own adjusted +/- stats (computed a little differently):

    http://basketballvalue.com/teamplay...summary&sortnumber=94&sortorder=DESC&team=OKC

    It shows OKC's biggest impact players to be Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Jeff Green, on the other hand, rates very poorly. Has the improvement of Durant and Westbrook, along with Harden's addition, been the primary factors in pushing OKC from a 23-win team to playoff contender?

    I know some here, especially A_3PO, follow the Thunder very closely. I'd like to read their views on this.
     
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  2. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    KD has improved in every way possible this season except his 3-point shooting is way off and he's taking more 3-pointers than ever before. With the way they've started the season, Scott Brooks needs to reign him in some because the playoffs are a possibility and every game counts. This is new territory for the Thunder.

    KD is seeing the floor better on both ends. He's putting a lot more effort and smarts into guarding his man and I would rate his help defense as pretty good. While still very thin, he's gained some muscle and gets tough rebounds inside.

    Their improvement this year has been the the strides all 3 players have made plus Harden. Sefolosha has also been a good addition. IMO, Jeff Green is the key player in whether they win or lose. When Green plays well, the Thunder are tough to beat. But he's laid some serious eggs when I've watched them. I never know which Jeff Green will show up. On the other hand, Westbrook has cut down the number of games where he just doesn't show up and do anything right. This happened a lot his rookie season. Westbrook has a chance to be a dominant PG in the NBA. His physical tools are incredible but it's gonna take him another year or two to figure it out. It will be well worth the wait.

    Harden started the season looking very tentative, but he's getting more comfortable each game. He was so bad on defense it was a joke but he's finally learning how to guard somebody without fouling 100% of the time. On offense, this guy is smooth as silk and sees the floor very well. Harden will be a great compliment to Westbrook when he breaks into the starting lineup.

    Another reason the Thunder are better is defense. When they shut the Jazz down in the 3rd quarter in Utah a few games ago, it blew me away. (Of course, they gave it all back in the 4th quarter before finally winning). Props to Scott Brooks for getting this young team to be effective on D (at least in spurts).

    What the Thunder lack is a defender inside. They don't need a post scorer but a post defender, shot-blocker and rebounder. Tyson Chandler would have been a good fit if he wasn't damaged goods. Nenad Krstic is a serviceable placeholder, but I'll never forget his flaming chokejob in the playoffs with the Nets. But he'd be a very good backup C on a good team.

    durvasa, the year-over-year change in KD's +/- according to those stats is almost unbelievable. I hope they are accurate.
     
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  3. Francis 4 ever

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    It is scary that an article along the lines of the title comes out every season he plays. I wonder how long it can go on. This kid has a no ceiling.
     
  4. rhino17

    rhino17 Member

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    OKC may be my favorite team behind the Rockets now, I just love what they are doing. Scottie Brooks has really done an excellent job since he took over as head coach. Durant has made some pretty big strides this year. Like someone else said, Westbrook has the potential to be an elite pg. At the time, I was confused by their selections of both Westbrook and Green. I did not think their games would translate to the nba, especially Green, but I was wrong.
     
  5. JeopardE

    JeopardE Member

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    Wow, his floor impact really was awful last year. The defensive turnaround is pretty astounding.

    I'm at least glad he isn't in Portland. This guy might already be the best small forward in the Western Conference, as good as Carmelo is.
     
  6. T-macsterful1

    T-macsterful1 Member

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    I don't know about that. Melo makes a case for being the best offensive talent in the league right now and he's playing amazing 2-way basketball as of last year. I really have to give props to lebron and melo still but Durant is gaining very very fast.

    I feel like through KD we may see the Tracy Mcgrady that never was but should've been.
     
  7. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    That's definitely true, Durant's catching up but Melo's still better now that he's also playing good D.

    As to Durvasa's question, I believe Durant himself is acknowledging he's playing better D this year. Someone quoted him saying that nowadays, he's tired after the first quarter because he's playing d, before he wouldn't play D the entire game.

    Anyway Gaylovers like Leeb should definitely pay attention to this article. This separates "stars" like Gay and "scrubs" like Battier: it start with "D" and ends with "efense".
     
  8. pmac

    pmac Member

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    What do you think of his play in previous years? Do you feel he hurt his team more than helped them.
     
  9. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    As a rookie, KD wasn't even coached. PJ Car"lose"imo let him shoot any shot any time. You can't do that with a rookie, especially one that is barely 19 years-old. In spite of that, seems like whenever the Thunder were close in the 4th quarter, the other team would remove KD from their offense and the Thunder would crumble and lose, guaranteed. It took KD most of the the season to figure out the concept of shot selection, but he finally did and put up very good numbers that he carried on to his 2nd year.

    Last season, the Thunder were victimized by the continued inconsistent play of Jeff Green and the up-and-down Russell Westbrook. KD was the only guy on their team the opposition knew would show up. When KD was on the floor, the opposition played tougher (IMO). When he was off the floor, the Thunder were a joke and the opposition knew it.

    I don't believe for one minute that if KD were not on the team that the Thunder were a better team last year.
     
  10. moestavern19

    moestavern19 Member

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    I haven't seen a college player that made my jaw drop since Durant, but John Wall is making people **** their pants lately.


    I said Durant would be Top 5 NBA player sooner than later, and I would have gladly traded McGrady for that #2 pick.

    I said it back then, I am awesome.
     
  11. sbyang

    sbyang Member

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    Here's some other things Winston has said:

    Lebron and Dwade are much better than Kobe, twice as good, in fact.
    Lamar Odom contributes as much to LAL as Kobe.
    Gilbert Arenas is just as good as Kobe.
    Rasheed Wallace and Manu Ginobili are tied for 10th best player of the decade.
    Brad Miller is the most underrated NBA player.
    Anthony Parker will be better than Shaq this year.

    I'm really glad Morey isn't as smart as this guy.
     
  12. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Where did he say that?
     
  13. leebigez

    leebigez Member

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    I think he's picking and choosing his spots better. I've watched about 15 games and I don't see him just scoring to score. I see him being more assertive in crucial situations on the floor. For a minute, he was falling into the kevin martin/micheal redd mode of a player. The article is also right about green. Green is similar to odom in that very few if any have a guy that big with sf skills in a psuedo pf. I think brooks is doing a really good job of getting players to buy into some of what he wants them to do defensively.
     
  14. sbyang

    sbyang Member

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    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12405218

    From 10/22/09

    The difference between this guy and Morey is that Morey knows when the stats are wrong. This guy just assumes that his stats work all the time and explains things that way.

    So when his stat for Durant says that Durant turned from a bad team player into a great team player, he just assumes that it's because Durant improved his game. The logical assumption is that there is an error in his stat or that his stat doesn't say nearly as much about the effective of a player as he thinks it does.
     
  15. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    The main thing is if it works, it works. I'd be curious to see if his predictions on how each team will do is as good or better than what most of us would come up with.
     
  16. sbyang

    sbyang Member

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    I'm willing to bet that a common sense projection will do OK against Winston's stat generated projection, especially in the NBA. He doesn't put his NBA projections out there yet.

    He does state his NFL projections on Oct. 27th, you know, when half the season was over and we pretty much knew who the teams were.
     
  17. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

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    The problem with plus-minus is the team effects a players plus-minus. Its really hard to have a good plus-minus on a bad team. I think its simply that his team is better this year so his plus-minus is better. I bet the plus-minus of everyone on the thunder has improved.
     
  18. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Adjusted +/- is trying to account for that by isolating contributions of each player given who he's sharing the court with. There could be a player on a bad team, but if he consistently makes his team, say, a -1 versus them being a -10 with a league average player, then he'd have a +9 rating.

    That being said, it is true that players on good teams will tend to have higher ratings than players on bad teams. But consider what we're talking about with "player ratings". If the idea is to quantify how much better players make their team, then doesn't it stand to reason really good teams will have better players than really bad teams?

    Take the Rockets and the Grizzlies. Based on "talent" or conventional stats, the Grizzlies may look to have our team beat. But do they really have better players? The adjusted +/- ratings will indicate otherwise, and I think rightly so.
     
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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