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Will the US Support Democracy in the Middle East?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    As we see the whole wmd thing and the threat to the US that Sadam's Iraq posed be debunked we see a shift wholesale in reasons given to justify the war. Oil and desire of Israeli hawks and their US supporters can't be mentioned, so we are left with Sadam was a bad guy and the US has the white man's burden of helping those beknighted Arabs have democracy. So it is worthwhile to view the US histroy concerning democracy in the region.

    Two interesting articles about the history of US relations with Iran and Syria are interesting. The story of how the US backed Sadam's ascension to power and backed him strongly till 1991 is more well known at this point.
    ************
    Iran:

    Quotes:

    In 1953, Iran had a democratic government. This is a very jarring thing for us to realize now because we are not used to seeing the word "Iran" and the word "democracy" in the same sentence. The fact is, however, that Iran was developing a long, rocky but democratic path in the early 1950s. For reasons which my book explains in great detail, the United States decided, in the summer of 1953, to go in and overthrow that democratic government. The result of that coup was that the Shah was placed back on his throne. He ruled for 25 years in an increasingly brutal and repressive fashion. His tyranny resulted in an explosion of revolution in 1979 the event that we call the Islamic revolution. That brought to power a group of fanatically anti-Western clerics who turned Iran into a center for anti-Americanism and, in particular, anti-American terrorism.

    The Islamic regime in Iran also inspired religious fanatics in many other countries, including those who went on to form the Taliban in Afghanistan and give refuge to terrorists who went on to attack the United States. The anger against the United States that flooded out of Iran following the 1979 revolution has its roots in the American role in crushing Iranian democracy in 1953. Therefore, I think it’s not an exaggeration to say that you can draw a line from the American sponsorship of the 1953 coup in Iran, through the Shah’s repressive regime, to the Islamic revolution of 1979 and the spread of militant religious fundamentalism that produced waves of anti-Western terrorism.
    ......
    Mossadegh was one of the very first leaders of what we then called the Third World to stand up to the existing imperial system. He was a huge figure. He was on the cover of Time magazine as their Man of the Year for 1951 because of the importance of what he was doing.

    Iran, at that time, was the home of the largest corporation, the largest industrial economic enterprise, in the entire British Empire the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. This oil company had been, for decades, reaping huge profits in Iran. But most of those profits went back to Britain. ... He nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. This enraged the British, and they decided they would stage a coup against him.

    Mossadegh got wind very quickly of what they were doing. And to end the British efforts, he decided to close the British Embassy. He sent all the British diplomats home, and along with them, all the secret agents who were plotting his overthrow. That left Britain with nobody on the ground to stage the coup. They came to President Truman and asked him to overthrow Mossadegh on their behalf. Truman threw them out of the office...

    But then, at the end of 1952, President Eisenhower was elected. Even before he had been inaugurated, the British realized that everything was changing in Washington. They sent one of their senior agents to Washington to appeal to the incoming team to change the policy that Truman had set -- the policy of nonintervention. And this secret agent wrote in a memoir many years later that I quote in my book, that when he was flying over to Washington, he decided: "If I ask the Americans to overthrow Mossadegh in order to rescue a British oil company, they are not going to respond. This is not an argument that’s going to cut much mustard in Washington. I’ve got to have a different argument. "

    And he came up with the argument: "I’m going to tell the Americans that Mossadegh is leading Iran towards Communism." He figured that this was going to be the argument that would win over the Dulles brothers and the rest of the Eisenhower team. He was right. In short order, the policy that Truman had set of nonintervention was reversed. ...

    from buzzflash dot com

    Stephen Kinzer, Author of "All The Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror"

    Iran

    SYRIA:
    ****************
    In September 2000, 99 members of Syria's intelligentsia - writers, teachers, lawyers, engineers, film-makers - published a letter in the London-based Arabic daily al-Hayat declaring a kind of war on the Government. Called Charter 99, it demanded an end to the 1963 state of emergency, the release of political prisoners, the return of political exiles, freedom of the press and the right to hold public meetings. Two months later, Assad freed about six hundred political prisoners and closed Damascus's notorious Mezzeh prison, where political dissidents have been mistreated ever since it was built by the French. (The much harsher Tadmor prison in the eastern desert is still in use.) A month later, the Government issued a licence for al-Domari (the 'Lamplighter'), the country's only privately owned newspaper. Meanwhile, more civil society networks were forming, and more declarations were being issued. Although the government press in Syria ignored them, Lebanese newspapers reported their activities and published their statements. Some of their pamphlets circulated as samizdat in universities and schools. On 3 June this year, 287 'Syrian citizens' published an appeal to Bashar in the Lebanese daily as-Safir. The petition warned that Syria faced two enemies, Israel and the United States, and was too weak to defend itself against either. While making the usual demand for an end to martial law and the release of political prisoners, it also argued for something more fundamental. 'The authorities have no remedy for our ills,' the petition stated. 'There is a real cure, which is national reform.' Rather than appeal to America to deliver democracy in Syria, the signatories appealed directly to Bashar.

    What is happening in Iraq and in Palestine is just the beginning of what America calls the new era. The characteristic of this era is the use of force by America and Israel. We should stop them from achieving their goals by repairing our society and making our country strong. The way to do this is to have a free people. The masses have been ignored and excluded from public life. You should let them come back and use their power to protect the country.

    One of the signatories was Sadek al-Azm, a recently retired professor of philosophy. A participant in civil society groups that include both Marxists and Islamists, he spoke to me about the message of the American war in Iraq for Syria. 'In meetings, we asked ourselves: suppose this happened here? Who would go out and fight for the regime? No one said: "I would." The strength of civil society is to tell the regime to be legitimate. There is a difference between defending the regime and defending the country.' He said the Syrian dissidents who drew up the al-Hayat petition have studied the political process in Turkey. 'When Erdogan said: "I have to submit to Parliament," the Americans could not tell him to go to hell. What Arab leader could say that without the Americans laughing him off the stage?' Syrian democrats are not waiting for democracy as a care package from the American Armed Forces so much as wanting to seize it themselves as a weapon with which to confront the American empire.

    Bashar Assad's regime is experimenting with a tactic his father wouldn't have bothered with: explaining itself to the population. Vice-President Khaddam justified government repression to an audience at Damascus University in 2001: 'We will not allow Syria to become another Algeria or Yugoslavia.' One of the country's Intelligence chiefs, Majid Suleiman, who is said to be close to Bashar, published an article in as-Safir on 15 May. In 'Syria and the American Threats', he declared that Syria would acquiesce in any arrangement the Palestinians reached with Israel. It was an important change. Until then, Syrian policy, laid down twenty years ago, had been to reject any arrangement that compromised Palestinian rights, even if the Palestinians accepted it. Suleiman insisted that the US still needed the Syrian presence in Lebanon. Only the Syrian Army could maintain surveillance of Hizbollah, the Palestinians and the Sunni Islamists. Without Syria, he wrote, violence might well break out in South Lebanon and provoke another Israeli invasion. His argument cast Syria in the role of guardian, rather than opponent, of American interests in Lebanon. (That was also Hafez's line with Kissinger and Baker.) As for Syria itself, his view was that those who were against the regime were a 'loyal opposition'. He believed the opposition in Iraq, by contrast, had been American agents. Surprisingly, Suleiman praised Riad Turk, a Communist leader who had been imprisoned by the regime for twenty years, for remaining loyal to the country. Turk, nonetheless, was awaiting trial for his criticisms of the Government. 'This was the first time ever,' Sadek al-Azm remarked, 'that they deigned to discuss problems openly without resorting to the language of bombast and attacking their enemies with the old slogans.'

    Does the United States really want democracy for Syria and the rest of the Arab world? Should it? Since 1949, when the CIA staged the first of the Arab world's many military coups in Syria, America has helped to suppress democratic movements throughout the Middle East. I remember interviewing one of the founders of the Syrian Baath, a former Cabinet minister who had long since left the Party and gone into silent opposition. Dr Hafiz Jemalli was in his eighties when we met fifteen years ago in Damascus. 'If we are democratic,' he said, 'we will be unified.' He was thinking of pre-colonial Syria, which the British and French turned into the statelets of little Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel/Palestine. 'If we are unified, we will be a danger to Israel.' Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the rest of the coterie who gave America its Iraq war are not interested in changing regimes only to see them become a danger to Israel. Will the US really allow Arab electorates to choose to resist Israel's colonisation of territories occupied in 1967, American control of their oil and the imposition of American military bases in their countries? Or will American rule in the Middle East founder on the contradiction of a 'democratisation' that ignores the people?

    Charles Glass is the author of Tribes with Flags and Money for Old Rope, a collection of despatches on the Middle East

    Syria
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Right, everything is the US's fault.
     
  3. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

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    Try and look at it objectively, will you.
     
    #3 Legendary21, Jul 31, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2003
  4. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Somehow I doubt these articles are objective.

    While I don't doubt that the US has made mistakes in foreign policy, and that our effort to stop the spread of communism probably had negative effects on other nations caught in the middle, I find the point of view of this articles riduluous.

    So we are supposed to believe that countries like Iran and Syria were well on their way to recognizing democracy, human rights, and freedom as unviersal values to be upheld, until the mean old USA came in and crushed all of it for oil? Come on.
     
  5. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    you promise to do the same?? because, personally...i don't feel very responsible, as an american, for the government structures of nations half a world away. i don't feel personally responsible for the theocracy that reigns through much of the middle east.
     
  6. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

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    I will look at it objectively. What you feel I cannot berate you for, but it´s not a lie that the US overthrew the democratic regime in Iran. The US did all it could to stop socialist and communist regimes all over the world at the time. They didn´t care if those regimes were democratically elected. As for Syria wouldn´t it be great if they could change to a democratic society. It would be kind of ironic. The US inspiring a democratic movement. Just not the way they thought. :D
     
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    is Sweden working hard to promote democracy in the Middle East. just curious.
     
  8. Legendary21

    Legendary21 Member

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    We were promoting peace and democracy a lot in the 80s. I think we´ve lost that ambition somewhere along the way. Now we´re more pro israel (at least the state minister is) and mostly promote profit maximization. :(
    I don´t think Swedens politics are great. Me posting here is not me trying to say my country is better than your country. Even thougt I might think so, and even though I´m a little nationalistic (not very much). It´s about me writing my opinion.
    Just informing. ;)
     
  9. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    No, Max they are not. But Sweden is not financially supporting oppressive regimes like Israel and Egypt. We aided the Shah of Iran to overthrow a democracy. And why do you think many in Iran Hate us?

    Its not just the middle east. Our political games have cause a great deal of resentment in Latin America as well.

    We need to stick to what we do best. Make the best products and services and sell them to the world, not limit our world market by politically upsetting groups of people and supporting dictators and monarchs that opress their people.
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Maybe you should. You supported the president and his War with Iraq. What if down the road, a consequence of this war is another 9/11 like terrorist attack on US soil. Would you feel responsible then?
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    come on, no worries. i'm not important enough to take on that kind of weight. the concept of this borders on ridiculous. i don't get to make the decisions...i'm not privy to all the information. we elect representatives to do these things. this president got my vote...if he screws up and some foreign policy move ends up backfiring on us, then that sucks...but i'm not claiming personal responsibility for that. you can point a finger if you like.
     
  12. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    This is what I hate about democracy. I do feel like I am culpable for the things my country does in my name -- even if I voted against the government doing it. That I am a member of the group makes me culpable. If I lived under a dictatorship, at least I could shift the blame to the president, call him a despot and tell the rest of the world (quietly, so I don't get executed) it's not my fault, I'm being oppressed along with everyone else. But not so, in a democracy, the leaders serve the public, so the public gets the blame.
     
  13. Princess

    Princess Member

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    We support those who share our beliefs, our values, our economy. We also support countries from whom we benefit. However, it is a give and take relationship.

    We don't support those who attack us or threaten us, even if they are a deomcracy.

    I think it basically comes down to the relationship established between each country and US.
     
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    REPUBLIC....not a DEMOCRACY...say it with me....REPUBLIC....

    :)


    NoWorries, why don't you go cower in the mountains and worry about everyone getting mad at us and launching an attack.

    It is far better to deal with terrorists from a position of power rather then one of placation.

    SHEESH !!

    DD
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Member

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    No substantive reply from the supporters of the Iraq War.

    Just ridicule. "I refust to accept that the US isn't always evil". "I find it ridiculous that these contries were on the road to democracy." No need to comment on the specific cases where we supported coups against democracy. Just ignore the facts.

    Finally a statement that the poster "doesn't feel Personally responsible for the structure of governments in far away countries. " The problem is that Pres Bush is saying that we are at war because we are promoting democracy and different government structures in a far away country.
     
  16. Princess

    Princess Member

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    No need to comment on the specific cases where we supported democracies, like England, or Mexico? What about all the countries we do support?

    The facts are that there is no 100% guarentee that we will support a country if it is democratic. Some democracies are not good. However, democracies generally fare better than non-democracies.
     
  17. Colt45

    Colt45 Member
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    C'mon, glynch, surely you realize that the defining characteristic of the current neocon regime and their sheep is the belief that any and everything they say or believe is the unasailable truth simply because they want it to be. They're impervious to logic and don't let little things like facts get in the way of their blathering rhetoric. And when all else fails, they fall back on the "Nu-uh!" defense.

    You know what never fails to make me laugh out loud? Whenever they pretend that they give a **** about the Iraqi people or an American soldier dying.
     
  18. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Yeah, the people who really cared were the ones who reported to Saddam as "human shields."
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    are you even remotely serious?

    this is the demonization of "the other side" that I've been talking about. it's so freaking ridiculous. create whatever image in your head of the mean nasty conservative you want, and i'm betting most of the conservatives on this board and elsewhere are no where close to meeting your image.

    unbelievable. yeah..i'm conservative..so i don't care about american soliders dying.

    :rolleyes:

    i also love being called a sheep...i'm glad that smart guys like you and glynch are here to shepherd me away from the flock. can you wipe my ass for me, too?
     
  20. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    How is that not a substantive response? My comment goes right to the heart of what far left wingers like you believe: that the US is the cause of the world's problems, that the US is the principal rogue nation, that everything would be peaceful and wonderful if the US just left everyone alone.


    The fact is that those countries were not on their way to respecting human rights and freedom. There was constant conflict, violence, and poverty in that region. I admit that the US has had to choose between 2 bad choices (for example-supporting a dictator to stop the spread of communism) but that doesn't mean that the US caused all their problems.
     

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