As THE BIGGEST Van Gundy supporter on this BBS, I have to say that I am starting to wonder if he is the right person for THIS team. Not that I think he is a bad coach. I have been in MSG plenty of times to know that Van Gundy is an excellent, excellent coach. And many experts agree that he is. But what I NEVER saw when he coached the Knicks was the lack of effort I have seen from this team. When I saw the Knicks under Gundy, there was rebounding. There was toughness. There was diving on the floor for crumbs. There was elbows to the throat to the opposition on their layup attempts. There was so much to love about what his players did for him on the floor and the love they expressed when asked about what its like to play for him. NYC loves the guy. I was hoping Houston would too. Little did I know that NYC/Knicks would actually be held AGAINST him by the fans at the BBS who keep clamoring for his exit and maybe have his players quitting before the game even enters the 4th quarter. I have to say that I am a little shocked that the Rockets are not doing alot better. And I have to say, the players may not be what Van Gundy needs to be succesful. Van Gundy might be one of those coaches that can lead veterans and not youngsters. Maybe he is better with a group of 30 something players who know that time is short and if they don't put their foot in someones behind, they are going to retire as failures. When I see Yao get outrebounded by a player a foot shorter than him, I have to wonder how Gundy feels about that. Oakley was barely 6'8" and grabbed 12 boards a night. Larry Johnson had a broken back and showed more toughness in one game than this team in 10 games. His system is proven and it works. But you need the RIGHT players. Jerry Sloan hasn't coached any less rigid or with any less discipline. He hasn't changed his system at all one bit. But, his GM gets him the right players that believe in what the coach has to say and what he wants to do. When I saw the Rockets last year in the playoffs, I saw what was the beginning of Frightfest. Not for us. But for the rest of the league. The Rocks played tough. Played in your face D. Played the Lakers to the point where you could argue vehemently that the Rockets could of spanked dat ass. It was the same system as this year. And it worked. But the players changed. And the fans perception stayed the same or got worse. Maybe its what I said in a previous thread. Maybe New York intensity is more than what players from this team can handle. I absolutely disagree that his style wears down players because nobody b****ed about that when Gundy never lost in the first round for 7 consecutive years they made the playoffs. Players that are worn down don't talk about Gundy the way they do. I know. I read the papers here when he left and they acted like their dad went to Iraq or something. Maybe the team and most importantly the fans can't take the scowl, the scolding, the demands of someone like Gundy. He is like Batman. Always pissed off at the world. Maybe its a players coach that they need. Laid back. Easy on the ears. Like Clark Kent. An ice cream eating, cotton candy talking coach who will run up and down the floor while Yao collapses of a heart attack as he tries to keep up. This team is SUPER SOFT. I always thought Gundy would make them tough. Like that Marines commercial where the guy pounds out a beautiful sword out of a piece of iron? I always held out hope that he would be able to get Yao to grab 10 rebounds and block 3 shots or make Mo T NEVER go without a rebound or have the players quit at the end of games. When the players looked like they quit, the coach has to be blamed. There is NO EXCUSE to quit on your coach and on your fans unless you are making a statement. The statement that the coach is nuts and its time for him to go. Players quitting is the first sign of demise in my opinion. Always has been. Maybe Gundy has to go. Not because he is not a good coach. I think he might be way too hard for this team and way too serious for the fans. And those two variables will always get a coach fired in the end.
Yickes! Even Almu wants JVG outa here. He really isnt good 4 this team. He is a good coach but i really do think he belongs in the east not the west. I hear NYC is lookin 4 a new coach, Wilkins isnt cutting it.
In all fairness though, this also was the style of coach Pat Riley. JVG did not overhaul that team to his "style".
Riley's style in LA was not to slow the ball down. Yes, he was a disciplinarian, but he played to the players strengths............in LA, New York, and Miami. Is Stan Van Gundy running the slow down in Miami now? Riley's style is to play tough hard nosed helping defense and then to maximize the offense to fit the personnel that he has. Van Gundy takes it too far and tries to make the offense skills of players metamorphis into a different skillset.
Also paradoxically, his teams were at their best during the 99 playoffs when their low post threat (Ewing) was injured and were playing a lot of "small ball" and were forcing turnovers and scoring in transition (Camby - at the C spot, I think too -especially) and relying on perimeter scoring. The most shocking (disappointing) thing about all this is that these are Van Gundy's guys; granted we didn't have a lot to work with, but it's inconceivable for me to think that he has not had substantial input over the last 1.5 years or whatever it is of personnel changes, as did Rudy, but yet somehow managed to obtain only guys who don't fit with his style. Bizarre.
Almu, JVG quit on NY too, as soon as he realized that the team he had was in for a long season. JVG took a winning program and kept it a winning one in NY, plalyers had already bought into the system when they were with Pat Riley. Never has Van Gundy brought in a young player and had him get better under him, the man is a good head coach under very narrow circumstances. Each player has different buttons that need to be pushed in order for them to perform, Phil Jackson is good at knowing when to praise and when to criticize. JVG rarely praises, and a player like Yao and Tmac respond better to praise than to criticism. Also criticism is easier to take if you also recognize accomplishment. JVG is a terd. DD
Nice post, Almu. I agree that VG is a good coach. I'm just not sure if he's the right coach for this team. It seems like he would be better coaching a bunch of average players and pushing them to overachieve like he did when he took the Knicks to the Finals. I'm not sure if JVG knows how to coach a team with a couple of superstar-like players. I don't think he knows how best to use them. He should adapt his system to his players, not the other way around. Trouble is, I don't think he knows how to do that.
So, here's my take: Riley was a good enough coach to recognize the limitations of his roster and tailor a system to them. It worked well, and they were among the league's best teams. JVG saw that Riley's new system worked, and when he became head coach, he tweaked it a bit and kept it working. What he didn't realize was that the system worked because Riley designed it for that roster. It's not a system that will work consistantly for any team. And if you want a glimpse of our possible future, check this out: We all know the guy lives and breathes basketball, and probably spends more hours working on it than most coaches in the league. You just know this situation is torturing him. He's probably not sleeping well, worried all the time, etc. If it gets much worse, it wouldn't surprise me much at all to see him bail out. Not many people could stand the strain that he's under right now, and remember: Van Gundy walked out on that Knicks team in mid-season when the going got tough.
Ewing was hurt, right? Was Spree on that team? Was Oakley or Smith? I'm talking about the team that went to the Finals.
I see waht your saying but i really dont see this happiening. If he bails on the ROX like he did the knicks you can kiss his NBA coaching job good bye. Plus theres ALOT of $$ involved. I just dont see JVG doing this unless its at the end of the season.
Camby was considered a lost soul and a waste of talent (not to mention "soft" until he revitalized himself under JVG while still young.
Almu-JVG Hater #1? Like the article said, no one is saying that JVG is a bad coach, but he just isn't the right coach for this team. This isn't the mid-90's Knicks, this is a new generation of basketball and much different conference than the EAST. Our record against West vs. East last season showed that JVG is an Eastern conf. style coach, but it doesn't really matter this season since we are losing to everyone. JVG could probably take over another mediocre team in the East and do fine, but we are a WESTERN conference team with stars, we need a style that lets Yao/TMac be themselves, do what got them famous (mostly TMac). We need a system that fits our players, JVG NEEDS his players to fit his system.
Actually I changed my mind and officially joined the parade last night as well. I wanted to see controlled game, but not ugly, no-life, everyone-scared, slow-motion game. And I also agree, JVG is too negative, nowadays, kids are just spoiled. You like it or not, that's the reality, you always have to adjust according to the environment. Determination is different than stubborness (how come it sounds so familiar, oh yeah, the election)
Guys, Those of you that keep saying that Gundy quit on the Knicks don't know what you are talking about. Unless you lived here, you won't know the power struggles that were going on at the Garden. He left at the right time, IMO. That place was poorly ran. It was an ABSOLUTE JOKE with Layden being the GM. ABSOLUTE JOKE. You have to know what went on before commenting on it. He resigned? Yes. But know the circumstances before you think he just up and quit. It wasn't that way at all. RILEY quit on his team. That is why he is hated here. Clutch, The system he inherited from Riley was tweaked alot as the players changed. When Riley left, there was no Allan Houston. There was no Sprewell. They didn't walk the ball up the floor anymore. They ran alot more. But the TOUGHNESS was always there. Mentally and physically. They never quit or never stopped playing. That is why they were in every game. Why do you think he wanted to bring Oakley in? And has Ewing there? And has Ward there? Its because they were the ones that he would say "WAR" and they would get ready for just that. That might not work in Houston or with players like the ones he has. Goodness, I thought Yao was going to be a monster. He looks like Rik Smits!! Not Shaq. Guys and gals, I am saying MAYBE Gundy is not the right coach. I am a very big believer in his way of teaching and coaching. But when your teacher doesn't get the grades from the students, you cant change the students or look for ones that buy into your teachings. Its easier to get a new teacher.
that team was solid from 1 - 5 no "superstars" per se but very deep and well rounded (like Utah/Detroit) J
This is the team that went to the finals. Johnson Thomas Ewing Houston Ward Camby Childs Dudley Sprewell I was wrong about the players but they were still very talented.
