Why Mo is unlikely to be a starter for a Championship Team

At least give the guy til the end of the year. This early criticism is just BORING.

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Interesting stuff, Mango. Of course, the league is quite a bit different today then it was even 5 years ago. Power forwards tend to be leaner and more athletic as opposed to bruisers like Rodman or stars like Duncan.

I think it is still early to asses Taylor's long-term impact on the league and his position but you dug up some very interesting stuff.

By the end of this season, we'll know all we need to know about Mo to determine whether he is a piece of our future or just a footnote in our history.

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I'm sure the Bulls heard arguments around 1990 about how every team for the past decade or so had had a dominant post player to go to when they needed a bucket. Detroit had Laimbeer. LA had Kareem. Boston had Mchale and Parish. Chicago had Cartwright and Horace Grant. Hardly household names. But the Bulls proved that the past doesn't matter. The game changes. 10 years ago every NBA team was scoring near 110 a game. Two years ago people were struggling to average 90. If the game stays the same, you would have a very good point. But as Jeff stated, the game changes constantly. At least give him a season before you start judging like that, as everyone was saying.

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WOW! Mango, That was so insightful, captivating and interesting! But like I said, Mo won't be a successful PF for a championship team because no other championship team has had a sorry PF who averages an appalling 4, 5 rebounds per game. --- That simple.

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The Cat,

I'm not going to jump in on the "we can't win with Mo" bandwagon. He has some deficiencies, but he still has time to work them out.

With that said, would you really describe Laimbeer as a "dominant post player"? Or are you just referring to his defense? He was a fine shooter and an awesome post defender (albeit Karl Malone was probably his biggest fan for all the rough and dirty play), but he wasn't IMHO exactly bread and butter in the post.

Anyway, sorry about the tangent. Everybody, right this way to the original topic of the post

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Anytime Mango starts a thread...you have to join in, since it is soooo rare! I'm willing to even be a Mo basher for a day to party in this thread.

Jeff, The Cat: The NBA may change, but the need for rebounding DOES NOT change.

Yes, the Lakers had no PF last year, and the Knicks had a version of Mo Taylor the year before. But there is not refuting that PFs must be aggressive in all aspects of the game for a team to have a big presence.

Mo is not an aggressive player. He has good defensive lateral movement, but that does no good when you give up the block easily. KT is superior at defense. Mo is trying to be Clifford Robinson, and I have no problems with us deemphacizing the low post like Phoenix does...but Cliffie is far more a competitor than Walker and Mo. And Shawn Marion--what is he eating for breakfast.

We have a softy at PF. I cannot dispute that.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited December 08, 2000).]

 

Notice something about all those teams.... Aside from the Bulls, all those teams have a legit scorer in the low post. The Bulls didnt need it b/c Jordan could shoot 50% from the field yr in and yr despite being a 2 guard. I dont think there is even the slighest chance Steve and Cuttino can hit with that kind of frequency taking that many shots per game. Ideally, you want a player that can do it all, score, rebound, defend etc but those guys dont grow on trees. I think anyone and everyone in this forum would love to have a Chris Webber in the frontcourt but it doesnt happen that way. The next best thing then is have a player like Mo that can score from a high pct area on the floor and back him up with a tough, aggressive rebounding machine like Jerome Williams. This is why I dont think KT and Mo are a good mix b/c KT does not make up for Mo's deficiencies. Mo could start as long as the rest of the frontcourt was built in the appropriate fashion. This would mean drafting a long, athletic SF that can rebound (Terence Morris, Shane Battier) and finding that aggressive PF backup. Both of those are pretty realistic and plausible goals imho.

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I know it's off the subject, but MManal, I think that's one of the greatest fallacies, that the Bulls didn't have a low post threat. It's better to say that they didn't have a TRADITIONAL low post threat, but they had one, especially during their 2nd 3-peat:

MICHAEL JORDAN.

Back to the topic, simply stated, Mo needs to step it up. I've heard the arguments that Mo plays too much on the perimeter to be a threat on the boards, but that's offensively. What has really disappointed me is the lack of DEFENSIVE boards!! But I'll continue to take a wait and see approach.

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Mango: Thanks. I love reading well written provocative posts that offer a premise and then back it with the reasons you came to that conclusion. Regardless of agreement, it is enjoyable to read.

I don't think we can give up on Maurice quite yet. This team's evolution will be steady this year, with a few painful lessons to be learned. But I agree with you, that it is almost imperative any successful chamionship-calibre team requires a dimensional power forward.

Whenever (last year, this summer, even now) I look at our team and try to determine who would I like to see fit into it at that spot, I see two or three players that could bring huge jumps to our game. Make us step up by what they bring to the mix. Others more obvious in their talent would make us instant contenders for the ring.

New Guys

PJ Brown would fit perfect. Love his defense, is ability to take games away from both "star" 4 and 5's. This year with his move more northerly, he is starting to hurt teams with his timely offensive game. His attitiude says "Rockets" all over it. A team player with experience.

A. Jamison would offer a dual explosiveness. He has great defense at crucial times and he plays much bigger than his (SF-PF) size inside. (See: Early-Dennis Rodman in tenaciousness, but with a better "J".) He may even be a lot closer to the effect CWebb has on his teammates than some admit. His game makes others much better, the moment he steps on the court. Of course it doesn't hurt to have a couple of 50+ games back to back. But even before all that hype, I thought he was one of the most underappreciated forwards in the league.

J. O'Neal is another guy who doesn't strike anyone as a superstar, but does the little things within a game to make his team better. McHale hid under that guise for a while. I am still waiting for a ball bustin' breakout this season from Jermaine. We will be making us shak our heads for a couple years I think.

Must Have PF's

A. McDyess is probably my second favorite Power Forward in the league when it comes to a "must have" kinda player. This guy has always suffered from the "Malone-Disease". That is, always being one player away from a championship calibre team. He is light and airy, but can bang with any PF. Has as much finesse with the ball as KG. Good passer. Good attitude.

(Incidentally, Zo is my favorite. He has been for some time. I know, I know he plays pivot, but he would be the absolute best Power Forward in the league if he had a star(or near-star) center to play with. Imagine, Zo with Hakeem. Or, Zo with Shaq. Or Zo with Deke. Or a front tandem with Duncan, or Garnett. Bloody awesome!)

Rasta Grant is a perfect match for Miami. I was so looking forward to watching Zo and Brian tandem up at the front that I was thinking of getting NBS-PASS just to watch their games. Grant is an old world banger. Fearless. He is focused on intent, yet subtle with a sweet touch around the net in his offensive threat. A pretty good open court cover on defense, as well as a decent postup defender. If Riles ever gets everyone healthy and Zo back, this starting fromnt court wouyld be hard, very hard to beat.



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Live, my point was that the Rockets need a post up threat like Mo if they want to win a ring down the line. This is the comment from Mango's post that sparked my response, "The Rockets have their strength in the backcourt and would best be served by building a front court with strong defense and rebounding." They cant just go with a bunch of rebounders and no post game, they need BOTH rough and rugged players and guys that can do it in the post. Ideally, one single player that can do it all ie Webber is ideal but that is something the Rockets would be hard pressed to get.

Also, on the Jordan point, I know thats what Im trying to say. The reason the Bulls didnt need a traditional post up threat is b/c Jordan could average 50% from the field year in and year out. The reason he could do this was b/c he had by far the most consistent mid range shot in the game and had a power guard type frame where he could post up each night. Neither Steve nor Cuttino are in this mold which is why the Rockets need to either develop Mo into a legit post up threat (which is why I have been continuously advocating giving him the ball down low) or acquire someone else that can be it.

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[This message has been edited by MManal (edited December 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MManal (edited December 08, 2000).]

 

Right on Opie! I totally agree with your assessment of PJ and Jamison. Both of those guys would be the ideal PF for the Rockets style of play.

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Just a side note:

Over the second three-peat for the bulls, MJ averaged 48.2% from the field.
Currently Steve Francis is averaging 48.1% from the field.

I know it's not really very relevant, but it show that Francis CAN shoot the same % from the field as Jordan!


More on-topic;
Mo will never average 10 boards a game, I agree with MManal that we need to go to him in the post a few more times per game and see what he's got there. I say establish him as presence a little bit more - and if he's not willing to go into the post then stuff it into Hakeem and see what he's got left in the tank. I'm not saying we go for anymore than 8-12 shots/game from the post, but we need to get something there!!

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Very good post Mango. Nice to see you back in the mix.

While I'm not entirely ready to write Mo' off for next season, you make a very valid argument that he isn't likely to help guide us back to the promiseland if he doesn't at least elevate his level of play back to his Clipper days. Mo' is very capable of contributing at least 15 ppg and bringing in 6 rpg, not spectacular numbers, but figuring that Francis and Mobley will bring most of the firepower to the court for years to come, this type of contribution should be sufficient. While he has never been a great rebounder, his offensive skills can benefit the Rockets greatly if he can find his role with this team.

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