So I went car shopping today. I want to get a Nissan Altima to replace my aging and falling apart Audi A4. I started by filling out information at some of those Internet sites that promise a no-haggle, no-hassle shopping experience. Turns out it's anything but. First, I get a call from Ted Stone at Trophy Nissan in Mesquite or Garland or wherever they are. I missed his call, but in his message, he says he has exactly what I am looking for, so I called back only to get his voice mail. I told him I'd come in this afternoon, though. I didn't feel the need to tell him exactly what I wanted again since I had spent all that time emailing him exactly what I wanted twice already. Ted calls back and leaves a message for me that he will meet me at the time I specified in my message. So I get there and Ted is nowhere to be found. I am forced to wait around for awhile while someone tracks down Ted. And instead of having "exactly what I was looking for" waiting to go, he sits me down and again asks what exactly I'm looking for (So I now tell him for the third time). He then starts in with the "What do you want your payment to be" crap. I answer that I want the payment to be whatever the price of the car dictates the payment to be. He then asks me what I am trading. For the fourth time, I tell him that I have no trade (I'm selling my Audi to someone outright). He insists on putting something on the form and wants to know what I came in. I tell him all about my Audi even though I wonder what difference it makes what kind of car I drive now since I am not trading it in. He tells me to wait while he goes and asks somebody where they keep the Altimas (I am not kidding about that part). In a few seconds, another salesman comes in claiming to be the sales manager (though I notice that the office that we're in has his stuff in it, too, so he would have me believe that the sales manager shares an office with the salesman. Sure) and again insists on finding out what I want my payment to be. Again, I state that when he tells me the price of the car, I will tell him what the payment should be. This annoys him, and he presses me for the information again. He then tells me that the price range for the car is $25,000 to $26,000 (even though the sticker price on the model I asked for THREE TIMES was $23,237. I looked it up on the freaking Internet before I left) and that the payment was around $500 to $550 (never mentioning what TERM he was talking about or even if he was talking about financing or a lease or what). I don't say anything, and he leaves and leaves me alone in the office again. Apparently the directions to the place where they keep the Altimas are very complicated because Ted Stone has still not come back by this point. I waited another five minutes and then wrote on the sheet he was working from that I didn't appreciate the lack of respect shown to me and would not do business with such an outift. I then called and left a message (Ted wasn't answering his phone. He was probably still getting directions to the super secret location where they keep the Altimas) from my car explaining how much they suck and how they could insert their Altima in any number of orifices. It just made me so mad. Unless I told them a payment, they wouldn't even tell me whether they had the car that I asked for THREE TIMES. They wouldn't even give me an accurate sticker price, forget about the no-haggle/no-hassle sales price. They left me cooling my heels in that office for a good long time while the treasure map to where the Altimas are kept was unearthed and copied onto new parchment. And then I left and they didn't even care. They didn't want to sell me a car (what an interesting retail concept. Not selling cars. I may want to get into that business myself. In a way, I'm already in it since I don't sell cars right now). Why does it have to be such a pain to buy a car? Why does the "no haggle/no hassle" price require so much haggling and hassle? Why is the price of a car a state secret? Why does it take half an hour for someone to say to Ted, "They're right across the street, you dimwit. You can see them from here"? Why do they need to know what payment I want to pay before they will even tell me if they have the car? (I'm glad the Audi guy didn't insist on that when I bought my A4 three years ago or we'd still be talking. I paid cash for that car). I'm ready to buy a car, but I actually can't get anybody to sell me one. No wonder the economy is sputtering. People who want to purchase items are thwarted by the salespeople.
If only that were my only tale of woe in regards to my attempted Nissan purchase. I also went to North Texas Nissan in Denton or Corinth or wherever it is. I talked to a fella there whose name I do not remember. The first thing I notice is that they've added around $3,000 to the sticker price of the car, listing such things as "sealant" on the additional sticker. I find this odd, but Salesguy keeps referring to the price on the factory sticker, so I assume that he knows that I know that their sealant is a ripoff for the Denton County Rubes. We Collin County bigwigs know better. So we get inside and start to talk about the price they're willing to sell me the car. But again, they aren't willing to discuss the price. They want to discuss the payment. Once again, I say that they payment will be whatever it will be when we find out the price. So he pulls the "I gotta talk to the manager" thing. He comes back with a sheet that lists a payment ($650 per month with $2,000 down for 48 months on a loan), but no price of the car in sight. At this point, I know the drill. So, I tell him that I have to go (and I really did have to go, so I wasn't lying. But I would've gone even if I didn't have anyplace else to be). He then comes after me telling me I need to put down a deposit on the car before someone else buys it. (I did ask him what the price was, and he said $25,900, which was $1,100 over the factory sticker, which was another reason I was leaving). I then say what I always say, "If someone else wants it so bad, let them buy it. You'll just find me another one. It's not like Nissan Altimas are rare." Heck, they've supposedly got 60 of 'em buried somewhere super secret around Trophy Nissan somewhere. But he keeps pushing the deposit thing. I finally have to turn around, look him in the eye and tell him that the hard sell didn't make him look good and that I didn't appreciate it. But only if it ended there. I went to Bankston Nissan in Lewisville. The experience was pretty good except when I had the nerve to ask for a manual transmission. The sales guy actually started telling me that I really wanted an automatic. He kept on like he was going to convince me that I didn't really want a manual. I'm 30 years-old. I know what I like and what I don't like. I likes to shift the gears. I know what it is like to drive in Dallas traffic. I've been driving in it WITH a manual transmission. He finally backs off trying to tell me that I want an automatic. But they don't have any manuals in stock, so I can't buy from him either right now. I later talked to their Internet Sales Guy (the first guy was a regular salesman). He also quoted me a price on an auto even though I asked for a manual (and then he got a little pissy when I noted that I didn't want an automatic). He then gives me a quote that is about $200 more than the factory sticker price of the car I requested (optionswise). I politely decline noting that it was stupid to pay more than sticker. I can get any number of dealers to sell me the car at sticker. I then came back with a fair counter offer, quoting the proper numbers. I get another reponse from yet a different person who tells me that my numbers were wrong because I wanted a sunroof and mudguards and a couple of other things I never asked for (he claimed that I did ask for them). I wrote back explaining that I never asked for those things, so I didn't really want to pay for them (as long as they have to bring in the vehicle from somewhere else, they might as well find the one that has the stuff I want and nothing more). I again told them what I was willing to pay. I've not yet heard back from them again. But at least the Bankston people are getting close to actually trying. If I could've gotten someone to actually try to sell me a car, they would've done so by now. I'm READY to BUY!
When I bought my Pathfinder last year, I did the following: (1) I went to a local dealership to look around, find out the various models, options, etc. Between this and the Nissan Website, I figured out the exact car I wanted (which was rare, so that helped -- I wanted the top model, but without leather). (2) I went to all the Nissan websites in Austin, Dallas, and Houston and contacted them online. Some had an internet sales manager, others just had a regular email. I told them by email exactly the car I was looking for and asked if they had it and what price it was. The key is that I only gave them an email and fax number -- no phone, so they couldn't freaking call me. (3) A few responded asking for more info, others said whether they had the car or not -- many didn't, simply because of the rarity. The few that had it, I asked for a price (if they hadn't already given it to me). I made an "Your invoice price is $x. I'll buy it for $y." counter offer. Mentioning the invoice price tells them you know what the hell you're doing. Again, this is all done by email so they can't hassle me. I ignored the potential hasslers. The ones that were open and honest, I replied to. (4) A dealership in Houston (Mossy Nissan) said they had it in stock. I made clear exactly what I wanted and that I was coming from out of town to buy it. They said they'd have it ready and waiting to pick up if I was interested. (5) I went down and everything went smoothly. I was done in about 2-3 hours and drove off. The big things I learned are (1) never give them your phone number and (2) make it clear you're in control of this -- you know the invoice prices, you know exactly what you'll pay, you know exactly what you want. Also I would make clear that if they hassle you, you're gone -- there are tons of other dealerships in Dallas, so you have plenty of options. If you like, when one salesmen does the "payments instead of price" thing, just tell him he's a moron and ask the manager for another salesperson. I bet the new guy won't try to pull that crap on you.
You touched on one of my raw nerves. I hate hardline selling. Let this be a public service announcement to all salespeople: The more you push, the less inclined I am to buy something from you. In fact, I sometimes go overboard. I don't care how bad I want something, I will not buy it from someone who does that. I know that's not the main point of your posts, but man I can't pass up the opportunity to say something about it. I also hate what I suspect these guys were trying to do. Why sell a guy a car on a 24 month low-interest loan when you can get him for five years at a higher rate, just as long as the monthly payment is right? What really bugs me is that they make it sound like they're doing you a favor.
<B>I had no clue Shanna was a Mossy Nissan Rep...</b> HA! Seriously, though -- I've dealt with them and another dealership in Houston -- a Saturn one when I was only 17 (with my parents, obviously) and they both went smoothly. I've been to all 2 Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Nissan dealerships here in Austin, and they were universally crappy. The problem in Austin is they know you can't really don't have too many options -- there are only 2 dealerships of each! I learned all these lessons the hard way. I gave a few my phone number and got literally 2-3 calls per day from some of these guys when I was still deciding. I got the "yeah, we have that in stock" thing over the phone. I got the "payments" thing. All loads of fun. When I mentioned invoices prices, though, everything changed! I'm guessing it has more to do with the bigger-city vs smaller-city thing than Mossy in particular, but I would recommend their internet sales guy to anyone.
That's good advice, Major, and I think I may accidentally stumbled into that with the Internet guy from Bankston in Lewisville. When I wrote back, I did mention the invoice price and what I thought was a fair sales price. We'll see if that ends up helping. I also contacted Grubbs Nissan in Bedford and Courtesy Nissan in Richardson listing exactly what options I did want, color preference and what the MSRP, invoice and fair sales price were. So, I may luck out there. My last resort is Don Davis Nissan in Arlington. My father is friends with Don Davis. I figure that if I start getting the run-around from them, I can nip it in the bud. I wasn just hoping that I could put this all together without having to call Daddy in to help. You know? The thing that makes this worse to me is that there are dealerships that have straightened up. I went to Middlekauf Ford in Plano to look at an Escape (I wanted to check it out, but I decided after thinking about it that I'd prefer the Altima) and they were a dream. No pressure. I told them my time-table and they gave me their "best price" (and even whipped out their "invoice" in an effort to show me they had nothing to hide). They guy even told me to check around with other Ford dealerships in the area to make sure I felt I was getting the best deal. I would definitely buy from them if I was in the market for a Ford.
Mr. Paige, it is a complete joke, but can almost be amusing once your used to it. 10 Years ago my father then 72 wanted to replace his toyota corolla. He had had a couple of them. They wouldn't give him a price. He tried several times. He called me in frustration. As luck would have it there was an actual "no dicker sticker" sale. Decent price. They occasionally have a real "no dicker sticker" sale. We went in and he bought the car for cash in 5 minutes plus a legitimate half hour of paperwork. My primer on how to buy a new car or a used car, based on experience and listening to experts on talk shows etc. You only want to have one ball in play. They beat you by juggling three or four at once. Always tell them you are paying cash, so you just want the price, every dollar counts. Hopefully you are. paying cash. Always tell them you have no trade in. I usually tell them they don't want it as the motor and transmission or blown or I'm selling it to a relative. Without a bad interest rate on payments or a poor trade in deal to screw you with, they do tend to get frustrated so always try to look hurried as you have to get home in 20 minutes to take the kids to tennis etc. Do give them your phone number before they go to discuss things with the general manager etc. Give them a few minutes and go home if your tired of free pizza and hot dogs . LET THEM CALL YOU AT HOME. It is so much easier to mess with them over the phone. Often you can get them negotiating against themselves by calling you back and lowering the price a time or two, when you haven't even countered but are just thinking or "wanting to look around some more." Go to the internet for some prices. More important if you live in the big city. Read the new car ads for a week or two. You will soon see the lowest advertised price in the area. Recent prices in Houston have beat the internet. Keep reading and especially on saturday you'll see someone beat that price. They have one car and it will be a thousand or so lower than all the others. They won't want to sell it. They might even have it up on a stand so it can't be test driven. (true story). They will try like crazy to bait and switch. If you want that car you have a hell of a deal. Unfortunately they probably imported one from Canada that has no air or some other crazy stunt. But I have seen legitimate deals like this. A toyota LE for $16,999 last weekend was outstanding. Of course it was white. At any rate you will soon see the non-negotiable price. You know it is a good advertised get you in the door price when they won't even go $100 lower or throw in a floor mat or two. Funny thing, I shopped the Altima just last week. The Altima S was $18,500 in Houston in the paper atracted me. Didn't like it as much as I thought. Made the mistake of also driving a used 2001 Maxima at the same price. Liked it much better. I have some moral dilemenas with the Maxima only getting 26 mpg on the highway. So, for $450 bucks later this week, I've got my 1993 Honda Accord with 5 speed and only 87,000 miles running better than ever. The good news is with the money I "saved" I'm now looking for a good 32 " to replace the cheapest 25 inch that RCA made 10 years ago. I get tired of hardly being able to see the faces of the Rockets despite having digital cable. The big news as far as I'm concerned is the Honda Civic hybrid that is coming out this spirng. 50+ mpg combined mileage and since it is the same size as my 1993 Accord I'll really be tempted then. I test drove the Toyota Prius hybrid and it is a surprisingly good drving car, awesome when you are only using the electric motor and the only motor sound is that of the other car's engines. But the new civic hybrid is supposed to be even better. It also has the advantage of using stndard civic parts as much as possible. If we all drive these hybrids until the fuel cell cars, we won't have to start wars for oil so often. but that is another story.
Just remember, they need you more than you need them. That being said, I've never had a dealer quote me above sticker price. I usually get 5-10% knocked off of it.
Exactly! I've bought enough cars in my lifetime to fill a book of "sales horror stories". The best advice I can give you is pay in cash! Of course, very very few people have $25000 saved up for a car. But having the financing pre-arranged, either thru a bank or credit union, is the same as cash. I always go to the credit union first, arrange my loan and the amount I want to finance, then go to the dealer. That way, you get to eliminate the whole "what do you want the payments to be" part from the equation and simply negotiate final price. This also eliminates down payment hassles as well. My 2 cents.
I love dealing with car salesmen because I've read up on all the tricks and have a couple of former car salesmen as friends. I was once kicked out of Mossy Nissan because I kept pointing out lies the sales manager was saying and refused to sign a damn thing till they showed me the car I wanted. Much like mrpaige, they said they had the car but had to find it, but "in the meantime, could you fill out this info?". In the meantime my ass was going to sit there and wait for your meantime ass to find my meantime car. Finally the guy gave up, ripped up some piece of paper he had (for dramatics I suppose) and said, "well it doesn't look like you want to deal with us today, sir". I said "it looks like I'll never deal with you con man" and left the door. Just go armed with invoice pricing, information on rebates, dealer cutbacks, etc. and see if you can get in touch with a fleet manager. He'll sell the thing to you at damn-near invoice price if you're cool with him. This is how I got my '97 Maxima at David McDavid Nissan in Houston. Took all of 1 day to settle on prices and another day to pick it up.
Eeek. Never deal from the sticker price! On most cars, the sticker price is far beyond what they could sell the car to you for. Deal from the invoice price and give the guy something to feed his family. If you deal from the sticker price, you're basically saying "I know you're screwing the hell out of me, and I can't do anything about it, but could you please be as nice as possible". If you deal from the invoice price, you're saying "I'm willing to give you a little bit, but I'll be damned if you're going to screw me over this". Don't be a passenger (ie, dealing from the sticker) be in the driver's seat (ie, dealing from the invoice). Now there are some cars that are so popular, that you're lucky to get it under the sticker price... like oh, Vipers, the new 350Z (likely), etc.
Yes! You'll especially love the look when you've settled on a price and they tell you now to go talk to the financer and you respond with, "I won't be needing one, I'm paying it in cash".
Actually, DOD, I've found that I can get a better final price if they know I'm paying cash. I tell them up front.
Just felt like throwing this in there. I went around looking for a new car for my wife and I, and it was extremely annoying. Just wanted something cheap and reliable and people were jerking me around with ****ty cars. Ended up going to Saturn and they were cool. They ended up giving us over twice as much on the trade in than others were offering(very generous imo, cuz that car sucked ass), and ended up with what we wanted, a cheap and reliable car. Kickazz.
Hey mrpaige, do yourself a favor and go to Park Cities VW and buy a Passat. I take my Golf there for service and usually end up talking with salespeople about what's new on the lot. From the people I've talked to there, I would have no problem doing business with them. Just don't buy a used car from them. The people on that side of the business are bald-faced liars. And besides, VWs rock! Not that the Altima isn't a nice car, but go test drive a Passat. They're about the same price.
The invoice price you can find on www.kbb.com or www.nadaguides.com or even yahoo. Remember that the "invoice price" is also just another sham. It means as much to the dealer as the MSRP should mean to you. Which is damn little. The dealers get ALL kinds of incentives and kick-backs based on volume. This is one of the reasons why you can often get a vehicle for less than invoice. I also second the notion that you should take away as many of their angles as possible. This means tell them you're paying cash and you're not trading your vehicle in. Paying cash to them is the same as financing through someone else. Credit Unions are great for people who don't actually have the cash, and if you look around, you'll find that just about everyone can join one. After you've settled on a price for a car you like, tell the salesperson you'd consider trading in your car for the right price. They have a distinct advantage here in that the price of your trade-in is deducted from the sales price of your new car BEFORE taxes are figured. Therefore, if the tax rate is say...8%, and they give you 10K for it, that would be the same as you selling it yourself for $10,800. Also, I don't have to tell anyone what a pain in the ass it is to sell your own car. I'm more than willing to pay about a 10% commission for that, so if I think I can get 10K for a car selling it myself, I'll probably come down to about $8,500 or so just to do the trade-in. One of my biggest tactics in buying a car is not being too picky. My take is if I get the car loaded, I'll have whatever I want, and if I don't want it, someone will want it when I turn around to sell the car later. I don't worry about color just as long as it's something that will retain resale value. My tastes change and black might be nice today, but I'm sure red or gray or brown might be fine tomorrow. What I do is look at the Saturday morning ads first thing in the morning....and I'm talking like 6:00 a.m. I do this for several weeks prior to when I'm actually ready to buy to see where prices are. Often you'll see cars advertsised at BELOW invoice. Invariably, you'll see the tag line: one only at this price. That's almost always a sign that it's one of their ad leaders. It's against the law to use a bait and switch tactic, so that car has to be available. You'll find that salespeople aren't really happy to find this car for you as all they'll get on it is a mini (minimum commission---usually $25). Still, you have to press. They may tell you that the ad was put in Wednesday and the car sold Thursday. That's fine, but make them show you the sale paperwork. If they don't, tell them you'll report them. If you press, and you're the first person on the lot that day, you can get that car at that price. Like I said, that price is often below invoice. They write the loss off to advertising. That ad will bring people onto their lot all week. These guys are the biggest assholes in the world, and you have to be somewhat of one yourself to get the deal you want. And remember: the world is full of suckers who just want the best monthly payment they can get. That's why cars are so lucrative. Don't hate them for wanting to "get you the best payment." Just realize they're scum and let them know you're educated. They're just going to want you off their lot as quickly as possibe, so they can start dealing with suckers again. The catch is that the automakers determine their holdbacks and other incentives...as well as the amount of inventory they'll provide to a dealer....based on their customer ratings. They want you off the lot, but they want you to be happy. And if that means selling you a car for no profit, so be it. They'll still have moved another unit, they'll have made a happy customer, and they'll still have a lot full of suckers just waiting to make up the difference.
