A quote from today's Houston Chronicle. "I don't know what piece they are missing, but they're missing one right now, and it's probably just some experience," Indiana's Mark Jackson said of the Clippers. "But when you put a guy like Lamar Odom out there, you're going to have a chance, because he's a special basketball player. "He cares about winning, and that's rare with a lot of these young guys these days. He has a tremendous future ahead, and I would love to have a piece of stock in him." I still think it is better to have a GREAT big man, and an average PG, then a GREAT PG and average big man. I love Steve Francis, but I happen to believe that SUPERSTAR big men are more important then SUPERSTAR little men. DaDakota Here is the full article. http://www.chron.com/content/story.html/sports/bk/bkn/416756
DaDakota You ever stop to think that the Missing Piece is a nice PG? I like Odom. he is Special. But I'll throw my lot with Francis mainly because we have him. You like Odom because of Inches. I like Francis because of Talent, heart and willingness to work. [not saying odom does not have these]. You mention all the champ Teams had great big man. There is about twice as many with good Big . . even Great ones that don't get the Championship. Rocket River It's not the Size of the dog in the fight but The size of the Fight in the Dog.
One point to clarify, my opinion stems from wanting the teams BEST player to be a big man, or a taller man. Most NBA championships are won with that teams best player being over 6'6". The only exception I can think of is Detroit. DaDakota
I have been waiting for a comparison like this for some time now. These are both supremely talented players and having either is a blessing. As far as if I could chose personally, I just don't know. Whilw Francis has mad hops and skills, to get a player of that size that can handle the ball, shoot and create is similar to Majic Johnson in ability. I'm just glad I've never had to make that choice, but for now I am happy with Francis.
Who cares most championship teams are won by big guys. Doesnt mean anything. We can get a big guy in the draft and he will learn how to play and will become good. Big guys are not hard to come by. But Francis, You dont find any pg like him. Doesnt come by often. Francis is a team player and Odom is not a team player all the time. I like francis way better than any rookie. He is the stuff. Case Closed.
Da...Ive been seeing your argument for big men (which Ill call Forwards and Centers) being the catalyst for titles for a few weeks now. Ill put it this way. Starting from 1980 teams with dominant guards have won 13 titles. While teams with dominant big men have won 7 titles. Heck you could make a point that Larry Bird (and his 3 titles) was truely a shooting guard, not a Small Foward. I don't think size had anything to do with it. Michael wasn't an exceptionally large shooting guard. Big yes, not tremendous. Magic was a huge point guard. What you didn't see was these players using their size on post plays overly. Jordan did it with dribble drive, and spot shooting. While Magic did it with fastbreaking and getting his whole team involved. So with that being said, I believe great guards, regardless of size, win titles.
Dreamshake I think you hit on it exactly Who can get his team involved and who can carry hit team. Centers/Frowards are Carriers. gaurds are Drivers. . . they drive to make everyone better. U need some inside presence but without the guard to move it. . . . it won't work. I look to the see how the lakers do . . . they trying to run the Kobe at SG thing. See how that goes. Rocket River
brahma rocket, I think you used the term great too loosely for big men. I would hardly be so presumption as to label Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, and Brian Grant as great. Actually I'm not ready to label Chris Webber as great either. If those guys are great, you might as well classify Stephon Marbury, John Stockton, Sam Cassell, Terrell Brandon, and Darrell Armstrong as great. And I do with DaDakota to a certain degree. Guys who truly dominate this league are usually taller than 6'3". Isiah was an exception. Kevin Johnson could dominate on certain nights but not everynight. But Steve Francis is a special talent. If I were to rate the pro-potential between Lamar Odom and Steve Francis, Lamar would probably rate a little higher. He's just a phenomal player that makes all of his teammates better. One of the most unselfish(but immensely talent) players I've ever seen. I know ya'll think he's performing wonderfully now as a Rook. But wait until he has better players around him, and you will see the extent of how good this man can become. I've been pleasantly surprised so far with his ability to block shots. He's had a couple of games when he blocked 6 and 7 shots. But Francis is no slouched either. But dealing with hypotheticals about trading one for another is rather irrelevent. I'd probably consider Odom 1 and Francis as 1A. There both just pretty damn good.
DaDakota- Like I said in a previous thread, I tend to agree with you about good big men are more valuable than good little men, but I am not totally sold on Odom yet (mostly because I honestly have not watched many of his games). In theory though I would agree with you. If there were 2 players who were considered to have comparable abilities I would tend to go towards the big man too.
The Bulls didn't have a great big man... ------------------ "You know, its interesting..." --Calvin Murphy
great bigmen: kevin garnett chris webber karl malone shaq o'neal hakeem olajuwon tim duncan alonzo mourning dikembe mutumbo antonio mcdyess rasheed wallace brian grant david robinson great pg's: gary payton jason kidd tim hardaway the point i'm trying to make is there is alot of valuable big men out there put a great pg is hard to come by. and francis will be one of the greatest.
Dreamshake, That is not my point at all. I do not care if the BEST player is a guard or forward, I just think that you can not teach HEIGHT. Magic Johnson was a guard...but he was 6'9" Larry Bird Forward 6'8" Hakeem, Duncan, Jordan 6'6"...and on and on... I love Francis, and what he brings to the table. However, I would prefer a TALLER player with the same skill set over a shorter player. If you can see over the defense without leaving your feet, it is a HUGE advantage. DaDakota PS. "I still love Francis, but I think to win it all, he can not be the main scorer of the Rockets offense. We need a TALLER dominant player to help" [This message has been edited by DaDakota (edited December 31, 1999).]
Da....I understand what your saying. But I dont see it as size making the difference as much as skill, which happened to be put in a certain size of a package. Thats why I pointed out that the guards were not used in a way that took advantage of their size. What Im saying is that, Francis at 6'3" could play a game like Magic, or even like MJ. Not saying hes going to be as good, what Im saying is that he could play both their style, and play it effectively. One other point about your size analogy. You do realize that the smallest guy on your list, has won more titles than all of those other guys. Im just saying its more of a coincedence, that great skills have come from a certain height, of those players you listed. And that its the skills, not the size that will determine who is a better player.
Ahhh, but grasshoper, if their skills were the same, in game situations that means that its regardless of Francis' smaller frame, correct? So if Francis is getting the same done, at a smaller frame, then it doesn't matter if he was 5'9" (like Calvin Murphy). Now, if you can snatch the stone from my hand.......
TDS99, I have been flipping through those 20 years of NBA champs in my mind and was wondering if you classified the '76er team as a big man dominant or guard dominant? Mango [This message has been edited by Mango (edited December 31, 1999).]
I just did the math and it looks like a front court vote for Moses. Year Team Dominant Player 1980 LA Magic 1981 Boston Bird 1982 LA Magic 1983 Philly Mose M. 1984 Boston Bird 1985 LA Magic 1986 Boston Bird 1987 LA Magic 1988 LA Magic 1989 Detroit Isiah 1990 Detroit Isiah 1991 Chicago MJ 1992 Chicago MJ 1993 Chicago MJ 1994 Houston Dream 1995 Houston Dream 1996 Chicago MJ 1997 Chicago MJ 1998 Chicago MJ 1999 San Antonio Duncan Mango [This message has been edited by Mango (edited December 31, 1999).] [This message has been edited by Mango (edited December 31, 1999).]
Mango... You had to bring up such a sore point didn't you. Yes I counted Moses Malone and his "Fo, Fo, Fo" prediction as a big man dominant team. Remember that Philly couldn't get past the Lakers or Celts till Houston gift wrapped the Sixers a title.
Ok, Dreamshake, and if skills are equal, who would you take? The smaller player or the taller player? I think Odom and Francis have similar skill levels, and therefore, my original point of rather having Odom still stands. Peace and wins in the new millenium. DaDakota
The comparison of Francis and Odom is foolish, both are future superstars, the Clippers have one of them the Rockets the other, to say Odom is not to the level of Francis is also foolish if you have watched this kid you almost want to take back anything bad you have said about the Clipper organization(ALMOST). The kid is as good as they come, hes got the total package, the only thing that remains unanswered is if he is a clutch performer or not, as far as getting his teamates involved thats what he does best, VERY unselfish which was a shock to me considering that you don't see ANY unselfish players come out of the draft that posses his talents. As far as Francis, he is definately a keeper, in the pro game PG is the hardest position to learn for a young guy since the college game is worked that if you have an athletic PG then they pretty much have a free rein on the offense so they never fully learn the position, they are made almost into a Sg and it is up to the NBA coach to actualy teach the player what his position is really about. Just wait it out and 5 years from now we will know if we made the right choice. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
