Why Do We Care So Much About the Middle East?

I was with ya until you loosely quoted Osama bin Laden.

 

Ask the government. I don't rightly understand it all myself except that much of it has to do with oil, illiteracy(or education...or lackthereof), economics, and poverty.

Seems like we could do a better job of helping our own people get out of poverty and helping the homeless out more with some of that money.

I tend to equate most of that money going to foreign Arab states and such as bribes to influence those in power to align themselves with us and maintain world order. See Pakistan for an example. Did we not bribe them to put some support bases and elicit their help for the war on terror in Afghanistan? They may not have helped us without all that money going to them.

Politics is complicated ****....I don't even think the government understands what they do except in the concept that money is a strong influence over foreign peoples and we have the upper hand when it comes to having it and dishing it out.

Surf

 

Funny how you try to lay all the blame on the U.S. Flying a plane into our buildings killing thousands of not only Americans, but people from around the world and screwing up the world economy is a good reason. The U.S. is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they give money to a country to help them then people are wondering why they're over there. If they U.S. doesn't do anything they're ripped for letting people starve and die over there and not doing anything about it.

 

amen!! damned if you do...damned if you don't.

 

I understand that we currently give 3 billion dollars in aid to Israel a year. But that aid is decreasing by 10% a year until it is virtually zero. Israel is a little over 50 years old. New countries need financial help to get started. Israel has been ATTACKED so many times that it needs the money to protect itself. People underestimate Israel's ability to take care of itself. I hear people say that if they lost all of their aid, they would be poor and eventually slaughtered because they don't have American weaponry. I don't care what weapons they have, Israel always finds a way to win.

What I don't understand is why many Americans don't see that Israel is going through the same thing that America went through with the WTC. If America can be in Afghanistan for over 6 months to destroy terrorist groups, why can't Israel take a month or however long it takes to take out terrorists? Then you hear, oh poor Palestinians, they are under a brutal "occupation." This is a bunch of B.S.. Israel has stated and shown that it has no intentions of taking over the west bank and gaza. The only reason that the Israeli army is there is that there are palestinians who wish the destruction of Israel and will stop at nothing to strap bombs on themselves and take out a few Jews with them. Hamas has stated that it will continue attacks on Israel EVEN IF THERE IS A LAND FOR PEACE AGREEMENT. To put it simply, I don't want any more planes flying into buildings and I don't want any more innocent people getting blown up by psychos who think they are god.

I'll tell it how it is. On one side, we have Israel with a pretty tough Prime Minister (He is not a war criminal and if you call him one you have bought into propaganda that belongs at arabicnews.com). We will say that Israel's only big ally is the U.S. and American support is fading. On the other side you have the Palestinians with a dictator who has many ties with terrorist organizations. Arafat has made ties with many Anti-American countries such as Iraq and Iran. We only hear Arafat in English saying that he wants peace. What does he say in Arabic? Resist, Resist, Resist!!! Glorious Martyrs, we must join them!

Also, why should America control Israel? I don't understand why people freak out when the U.S. demands that Israel pull out and they say "No." Atleast they are freakin honest. I don't know how many times Bush has told Arafat to crack down on terrorists and the next day there is a suicide bombing. For many years, Arafat has been taking the aid sent FOR his people and obviously it has not reached them. Can somebody tell me why he owns a palace in France? Can somebody tell me why he bought arms from Iran instead of buying food for his people?

I don't think there will be total peace for a few generations until the hate is flushed out. Is there still racism in America? Documentaries have been made showing the type of education many Palestinian children recieve(I saw one with sesame street characters praising the killing of jews). Someone posted how a freakin 10 year old kid blew himself up to take out a few IDF soldiers. We call this crazy, but a lot of arab media will see this kid as a couragious young warrior fighting occupation. This turmoil in the middle east can't be fixed by people that don't live there. Israel only wants to defend itself and doesn't want one drop of American blood spilled on its soil. I think Bush should take a step back so he doesn't get stuck in this quagmire. More people will die and not even Bush, Sharon, or Arafat can stop it. However, atleast Sharon can slow it down by finishing the missions the IDF started to uproot terror infrastructures.

By rushing the Israelis to finish their missions, more innocent people will die. Rushing only makes things sloppy and it cost Israel 13 soldiers the other day. Just like Bush asked for resolve to stay in Afghanistan, have some resolve for the Israelis and trust that they will do the best to their ability to hunt down ONLY terrorists and not innocents. Also hope that these militants surrender and stop hiding behind innocent women, children, and even priests.

 

From head to toe, beginning to end, rootah to the tootah, my vote for best post of the year.

 

My last post was a little off topic so i'll address what you posted.

Basically, because it is the right thing to do. We went to war in Vietnam only because communism was spreading. Was this the right thing to do? That is a question for the ages.

Ever since it was created, Israel right to exist has been challenged by the ENTIRE arab world. In recent history, no government has stood up for the Jewish people. When the Nazis started slaughtering Jews, the British knew. They had cracked their code. However, they did nothing because it would take away their military advantage. Even before Pearl Harbor, FDR knew about the concentration camps but he didnt want to get into a war just for the Jews.

Why should we care? BECAUSE WE DIDNT CARE BEFORE AND IT GOT MILLIONS KILLED!!!!!

Why is it all over the media? Simple.. BECAUSE IT GETS GOOD RATINGS!!!

 

If America can be in Afghanistan for over 6 months to destroy terrorist groups, why can't Israel take a month or however long it takes to take out terrorists? Then you hear, oh poor Palestinians, they are under a brutal "occupation."

A couple of things here. First, the big difference between Afghanistan and Israel IS the occupation. The US was not occupying OBL's land -- he's just pissed off.

Israel is in a little different boat here. First off, there's disputed land ownership (not an issue with OBL). Second, Israel has oppressed Palestinian people for the last 50 years. They don't have full rights of citizens and are basically treated as a lower-class within society.

The suicide bombings are a fairly recent phenomenon -- the last 10 or 15 years, I believe. Before that, they tried the pure war strategy and it obviously failed. They should have tried a pure peace strategy -- and that was the BIG Palestinian mistake -- but that is now virtually impossible due to the militant groups. So they've turned to the only thing they know left. Now, to be clear, I'm not saying it's justified. However, it's not surprising or unexpected. Corner someone and take advantage of them, and they'll lash out in any way they can -- the line between right or wrong blurs for people when their survival is at stake.

Keep in mind there are two separate groups here. There are the militants, who definitely should be dealt with through force where possible -- there's only so much you can do in this respect (see below) -- and there are then there are the Palestinian people who really haven't done anything wrong but are in the line of fire. Yes, they support their government and Hamas and company. However, what are their alternatives? They only have two choices -- their own leaders or those of the people that have oppressed them for the last 50 years, so of course they will support their own leaders.

Military solutions are great for military problems. The thing Israel is going to have to deal with is the fact that their military attacks alone WON'T stop terrorism and will only make the people even more angry and help Hamas and company get new recruits. I would have no problem with Israel's attacks if they could actually get results, but the reality is that you can't stop one man from getting a $100 bomb and blowing himself up. With Osama's attacks, he needs millions of dollars and tons of people, so that's more an issue that can be dealt with militarily and economically. Single people are much more difficult, or impossible, to stop that way, and I'm against Israel's policies because I don't think they have a shot in hell in making things better and very likely will make things worse.

 

I like the idea of putting all the Palestinians into the West Bank and Gaza and pulling all the Jewish settlers out of the West Bank and Gaza. Then build a demilitarized zone between Israel and the rest of the Arab world. No Arabs in and no Israelis out. Keep everyone on their own side of the fence. The closest they get is the temple mount. Arabs on the mount and Jews down below at the wailing wall.

If they can't live together, then they can forget what each other looks like.

Peace is probably an illusion. Like Kashmir and other trouble spots, the blood will continue to flow.

 

it's all about oil.

 

Israel has been trying to give back that land for about 20 years now. In addition, someone posted here the fact that Palestinians are not given the full rights of citizens all across the Middle East so I don't know if that can be used as an example of Israeli oppression since it's apparently the norm in the region.

 

Yes, it is about oil, and it is also about the fact that the disputed land in question is holy land to Jews, Muslims and Christians.

 

Timing said: Israel has been trying to give back the land for 20 years.

Can you explain why for the last 20 years they just keep building settlments that they don't intend to give back?

Franchise 2001 said: that the Israelis have said and shown that they have no intention of taking over the west bank and gaza.

Can you explain how building more and more setllements shows this intention on Israel's part.

Israel has talked a good talk for these 20 plus years, but its actions show otherwise.

 

Major: I have to agree with you that Israel's situation is much different than the U.S.. But it has one big similarity, both the U.S. and Israel were attacked by terrorist organizations. This warrants a similar military response of "Search and Destroy."

Now lets discuss the issue of WHY the Palestinians don't have full rights. Do not get me wrong, it horrifies me that in today's world children are still hungry. Lets go over some recent history of the "Palestinians." Where do they belong? Well, their leader who calls Palestine his "homeland" is from Egypt(he lied about this). Old Palestine consisted of both Israel and Jordan. In 1948, Israel was created and both Jews and Arabs lived there(just like they do today and many many arabs have full citizenship and even sit in the Israeli Knesset). Have you ever heard of Black September. Basically, King Hussein had enough of the Palestinian uprising(trying to overthrow him) and he slaughtered and deported thousands of Palestinians. In Lebanon(Sabra and Shatilla) Palestinians were slaughtered by Christians in retalliation for attacks on them.

Ironically, the Palestinians are much like the Jews in the past few centuries. Wherever they go, they are second class citizens and/ or hated. However, the palestinians are not despised because of their religion but because of their actions. Palestinians have been displaced throughout the middle east and they want their own state. However, after being massacred in 2 different countries, they still haven't learned that violence is not the way.

Now about the no citizenship argument. Lets say a man from Yemen applies for U.S. citizenship. On his application it states that he wants to kill as many Americans as possible and to blow up as many buildings as he can. Do you think the U.S. would give him citizenship? I think that he might get a good ole torture session from a navy seal instead.

When the P.L.O. charter was created it called for the DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. Now why in the hell would you grant people who want to throw you into the sea citizenship to your country? I understand that this is probably the thinking of extremists and many palestinians just want to farm and raise a family in peace.

Even if the Palestinians were given the option of Israeli citizenship most would probably chose not to have it. There would probably be a bonfire of their Israeli passports.

I think it is funny now that the Palestinians have so much support from the arab world. They once killed them and now they are for them. If a Palestinian state was created, they could finally rid themselves of their Palestinian problem and ship em all off to Palestine. What does this do? The number of Palestinians in the West Bank will grow from 3 million to atleast 6-10 million. Israel needs peaceful relations NOW with the Palestinians before they can EVER let them create a state. If these terror organizations are not completely wiped out, they will grow incredibly when more palestinians arrive. If you can't see that this threatens the U.S. also, then you are BLIND.

 

True, however there are disputed zones all over the world where we are not an active participant.

Chechnya (terrible spelling) is one example. Sudan is another. Tibet is yet another. Kashmir is another. There are disputed zones and terrorist activities across the globe.

I don't think Khan made his point quite clearly enough. The point, IMO, is why have we EVER been involved in the ME? What exactly are we getting from that part of the world that requires our involvement?

It is not like us to fight wars or broker peace in parts of the world where our interests are not served. We were dragged kicking and screaming into Bosnia because we had no vested interest there in the first place. We had no interest in protecting our allies in Europe until Pearl Harbor.

I think that, beyond the immediate issue of Osama Bin Laden and September 11, we SHOULD evalaute why we would be involved in a war in that part of the world.

 

Israel has been trying to give back that land for about 20 years now.

But they haven't. They've built (and are still building) settlements on the land that's supposed to be given back and Sharon has now stated that the settlements will remain. They've also drawn up wacky maps that would make it impossible for a "State of Palestine" to actually exist.

In addition, someone posted here the fact that Palestinians are not given the full rights of citizens all across the Middle East so I don't know if that can be used as an example of Israeli oppression since it's apparently the norm in the region.

That's true, but that's a fight the Palestinians need to make in each of those other countries if they so choose. The fact still is that Israel doesn't treat the Palestinians on its land properly, and those are the people who are fighting for their own rights.

It's just a messed up situation. I personally like the Korea-solution that people mentioned above -- build a wall or a demilitarized zone and separate the two peoples entirely. I'm not sure how Palestinians would react to that. However, I'm pretty sure Israel wouldn't accept it because of the settlements issue.

 

Major: I have to agree with you that Israel's situation is much different than the U.S.. But it has one big similarity, both the U.S. and Israel were attacked by terrorist organizations. This warrants a similar military response of "Search and Destroy."

I agree with this, if it would work. I just think the circumstances are different and that it won't work in Israel. They don't have the natural protection we do due to distance, nor the world-wide reach to effectively carry out their war.

Now lets discuss the issue of WHY the Palestinians don't have full rights. Do not get me wrong, it horrifies me that in today's world children are still hungry. Lets go over some recent history of the "Palestinians." Where do they belong? Well, their leader who calls Palestine his "homeland" is from Egypt(he lied about this).

I agree there's no proper place for them. However, ultimately, they were living on the land that is now Israel and were displaced by the U.N. I think they have some type of legitimate complaint there. The easiest thing to do, and what Israel has said it wants to do, is give them their own government so they can stop b****ing to everyone.

Now about the no citizenship argument. Lets say a man from Yemen applies for U.S. citizenship. On his application it states that he wants to kill as many Americans as possible and to blow up as many buildings as he can. Do you think the U.S. would give him citizenship?

Understandable. But what about the people who have lived there ever since Israel was founded? I am under the impression that the majority of Palestinians don't have equal rights, even though the majority aren't terrorists. I could definitely be wrong on this though.

Even if the Palestinians were given the option of Israeli citizenship most would probably chose not to have it. There would probably be a bonfire of their Israeli passports.

This is probably true, but then offering it would gain Israel an incredible wave of support throughout the world. They could seriously reduce the repression charges from human rights organizations, the UN, etc.

I think it is funny now that the Palestinians have so much support from the arab world. They once killed them and now they are for them. If a Palestinian state was created, they could finally rid themselves of their Palestinian problem and ship em all off to Palestine.

This I agree with. The Arab world is using the Palestinians to further their own goals. It's basically like an alliance of convenience. They have probably not given Palestinians the best of advice on how to gain independence.

 

Yes there are, but can you name another place on earth that is disputed AND holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians? As far as I know, the Middle East is the only area that falls into this category.

IMHO, a couple of reasons why we've been involved in the Middle East are (1) our "traditional role" since World War II as the percieved "policemen" of the world, something I disagree with and something that I feel also got us involved in Korea and Vietnam, and (2) the fact that the USA was the first nation to recognize the State of Israel in 1948.

 

Heaven

i win again

edit: oops you said on earth.. well I guess Disneyland is heaven on earth so my final answer is Disneyland!