every time there is a thread about steve francis (and the possibility of trading him) there are fans that mention that he is an allstar so we should be able to get a lot for him. since when does being popular with fans have any bearing whatsoever on a player's market value??? just because steve was voted a starter for the west, does not mean he is one of the top two guards in the west. can someone explain this to me?
Because All Stars bring in the fans, and when fans come they bring money and support. If two guys are equal in every way ecept that one starts at the All Star game, which would you pick if you were an expansion team? Being an All Star does have value. The same value that will keep Yao Ming in Houston forever, regardless of whether he ever becomes one of the best C's or not.
Clearly there is a difference (sometimes) between an All-Star "voted in" and an All-Star "picked by coaches" in terms of "talent". But All-Star's that are "voted in" have value as well in the pocketbook. They sell the jerseys, do the commercials, and the "casual fan" will pay money to see them. That's why they got voted in in the first place! So they have value too. In fact I would say Francis' value is higher for teams such as, Atlanta let's say, because they are trying to sell TICKETS. Teams that want a "known/perceived" star would look to trade for Francis. Look at Philly. I think they would like to trade AI, but he brings a sell out each night. Which is more important? Having the basketball team win or selling out the arena? Sometimes for the Owners it is a tough decision, where as as hard core fans we look strictly at the talent because it is not our bank account that is being effected either way.
Sane, don't forget to include Yao's international appeal. Verse, there is "some" substance behind Francis stardom and why people think he is great (or best in this case). If Steve made it to all-star solely due to his "flashes", wouldn't Jason Richardson be high on the all-star ballotting? Not to de-rail your thread, but why does people equate Francis's tough time in adjusting his new role to "having no heart"? One thing I love about Francis is that I do think he has a lot of heart. Call him stubborn, low Bball IQ, immature, but I just can't accept the "no heart" thing.
using that logic.... who is equal to vince carter? he is always the top vote getter, and is still a star (talent wise). using that logic.... steve francis has more trade value than baron davis, right? talent-wise they are equal, yet steve's the bigger "star", so he should garner more than baron? i disagree. being an allstar starter has, at best, a very small impact on a player's market value...unless you're talking about mega, mega stars like lebron/yao/shaq - IOW guys who single handedly sell out arenas. steve does not do that. allstar votes notwithstanding, steve could not get you 1) ben wallace 2) ray allen 3) baron davis those guys aren't as popular as steve, but would never be traded for steve. why? because league GMs trade based on decisions other than popularity (all things being equal). when considering steve francis trades understand some things... 1) teams know that steve does not fit well with yao, which means the rockets' hands are somewhat forced. ask for more from the rockets!! what are you going to do? stick with steve knowing that he doesn't fit well with yao or JVG? no way, those teams will ask for more and give less because they can. 2) how will steve fit on their team? steve has proven that he cannot catch & shoot, is a poor decision maker, and must dominate the ball to be at his most effective. ask yourself: "what teams in the nba need that?" ok, now after you've made that list of teams, look at who they have on their rosters, and who they'd be willing to give up to rebuild their team around the same steve described above. 3) why are they trading their player? if their player is disgruntled, it's a perfect trade for both team and, IMO, the only kind of trade that anyone will see this summer that will come close to being called "equitable". if their player is not disgruntled, he will be a player with "potential", which will piss off fans in houston. other than that, the rockets will not get equal value "talentwise". here's the important thing to keep in mind: look to trade for a player that fits the rockets better than steve... not for a player that is as good as or better than steve. the real answer is chemistry.
Well, I watched the game against the Lakers again yesterday... What I really liked: How Francis faked Payton out of his pants. What I didn't like at all: The stupid faces Francis made afterwards. With regard to the question, I think being an all-star is an indication of being talented, and I still think Francis has all-star talent. His shot is off this season. If he could correct that and sometimes make smarter decisions on the court, he could be fine. Hopefully, he can adapt. Only the results will show.
ok, here's the 2004 allstar team, with astericks denoting the starters... EAST *Vince Carter *Jermaine O’Neal *Allen Iverson *Tracy McGrady *Ben Wallace Ron Artest Baron Davis Jason Kidd Jamaal Magliore Kenyon Martin Paul Pierce Michael Redd WEST *Tim Duncan *Kevin Garnett *Kobe Bryant *Steve Francis *Yao Ming Ray Allen Sam Cassell Andrei Kirilenko Brad Miller Dirk Nowitski Shaquille O’Neal Peja 1. eliminate the names of the western conference teams, as the odds of trading steve within conference are very slim. 2. of the allstars listed, if you were the other team's GM, would you trade your player for francis?? there are only 3 teams in which i could even consider saying yes to steve: indiana (for artest) milwaukee (for redd) new jersey (for kmart) kmart's a FA after this season, so cut him off the list. indiana? i don't know that steve franchise is a larry bird &/or rick carlisle type player. but i could be wrong. milwaukee? considering tj's health, yea, i consider it. but isn't redd on a cheapie contract? so, i'd have to toss in another player on top of my allstar? hmm. maybe if i throw in a deadweight contract. maybe.
allstars that are voted in have pocketbook value for franchises that absolutely suck (performance wise), and have no fanbase. francis' value higher in ATL? yep. for the reason i just stated. then again, who do they have that houston would want? philly's reluctance to trade AI (albeit a miniscule amt of reluctance, imo) is because of the city's undying love for AI...not because of his leaguewide popularity. the "city of brotherly love" loves AI. oh, and any owner will tell you that the most important thing is not winning or losing...it's making money. how you make $$ depends on what city you're in. if you're in LA, and you're the clip joint, winning isn't enough. fans will still flock to the lakers game. thus, they have gone with the approach of having a small payroll, and exciting players. the other side of the coin is denver. they win and their fans have started showing up.
Just an aside...I dont think you can just eliminate the names of western conference teams. I understand your reasoning, but as an example for the sake of argument, what if the Rockets traded Francis to the Bulls for Eddy Curry and then sent him to the Sonics for Ray Allen? 3 team trades can still get you Western Talent via sending your talent to the East.
Well stated. Stevie is a talent in need of a 'fit'. There are teams that need talent and star power. If you're voted on thrice to the ASG you have STAR POWER!
Why? Because we have hard core fans that support the team. I voted for any Rockets player on the all star ballot. Doesn't neccessarily mean Francis is better than Nash or Bibby or Kidd. I would have voted for Nash or Kidd if they're on our team.
First off, it's your opinion that we could not get Allen, Baron or Ben Wallace for Steve. I disagree, and I'm sure many other agree with me. But ofcourse, these things won't be sorted out since it's amatter of opinion, but keep in mind that it is in fact a matter of opinion. I do believe that a team like Washington would consider the fact that Steve is an All Star and is from Washington - the guy would easily bring 4 or 5 sellouts to that team if he moved there. As an owner, the fact that someone starts at the All Star game is VERY VERY valuable, and owner's put the stamp on trade decisions as well. Francis for Tyronne Lue and Juwan Howard would probably improve this team, but I really don't think Les would pull the trigger on that deal, because you lose a lot of fan interest in that sort of deal. I'm not saying it has major value, but it definitely has good value (being an All Star). In fact, I believe players have huge bonuses for starting or making the All Star game, correct? Now, the main point about getting a player that fits... Right now, I'd rather stockpile talent and turn it into something better down the road (see Memphis, Dallas and Sacramento). Chemistry is not more important than talent. Talent can overcome chemistry and chemistry can overcome talent. For the Rockets, I don't think we have enough talent right now to start worrying about glue-like chemistry. Mobley is fitting in great, but if we can acquire a more talented yet disgruntled player in a deal for him, I'd pull the trigger. If JJ and Cato can net us a major piece at small forward, do you pull the trigger? Those guys are fitting in so well, but how far will that take us? Once you have the major pieces (2 or 3 pieces) in place, you start worrying about the type of chemistry YOU'RE talking about. As for now, the only solid piece that's locked into long-term plans is Yao Ming. If we can trade Mobley, JJ, and Cato for someone like Ray Allen.... Pull the damn trigger, even if it means our chemistry gets shot and we lose the 3 players that hold this team together. We are not set to add spare parts, we still need major parts.
