Why do people associate religion with moral values?

People are slowly disconnecting the two and figuring out they are not mutually exclusive, but damn if it isn't taking a while.

 

Read Nietzsche, particularly:


or


Christianity is Platonism for the masses. Without a transcendent, universal, omnipotent, irreproachable source of ethics, people believe that they aren't real, don't mean anything, or can't protect us. They believe God enforces the moral law, so if you don't believer in God, you don't believe that morality has any source of enforcement and are therefore nihilistic.

 

How is it obvious that Obama does not have strong beliefs about religion?

What evidence do you have that he is faking his beliefs?

Who do you mean by religious right wing nuts?

How do you define sound moral behavior?

I really would like to respond if I could understand more of what you mean.

 

I don't believe that way.

 

I agree 1000% with everything you just said.

 

I didn't mean to imply you do. I was try to answer why people who DO accuse agnostics/atheists of lacking moral values categorically think that way. Kierkegaard is perfect evidence of how wide the spectrum of Christian belief is. An organized religion is like any other large social group, be it a political party, a sports team, or a school, you'll have jerks under any tent. I hope no offense was taken by you, rhester, or anyone else who thought I was judging all, or even most, Christians.

 

Iraq fundamentally changed the American political landscape. We intervened in Haiti, Bosnia, and Somalia because we thought it was "right" according to our country's principles of freedom and less because God told us to.

Now you got to ask yourself, would Bush had invaded Iraq even without the support of religious right? Likely so because neocon ideology has secular underpinnings.

Have you read his books? Whether or not Obama is truly religious, he has the insight to understand the importance of spirituality in one's life.

The Bible isn't just a book of what good and bad is. I think you're missing something huge because religion isn't all about morality.

 

Look, you asked why people associate religion with moral values, and Nietzsche gives a DAMN good answer. Do you really want to know why religion persists as such as strong source of morality or do you just want to bash religion as outdated (which it may very well be)?

Your assertion about a 'basic consciousness' doesn't have much proof in the last century. In fact, Nietzsche's famous proclaiming "God is dead. ... And we have killed him." was ultimately a warning about the dark clouds gathering over Europe as people struggled to reestablish order in a world where God, for all intensive purposes, no longer exists. Nietzsche asks:

Stalinism, Nazism, the relentless pursuit of progress and science despite the human costs, World War I, World War II, and on and on. "Not being a dick" is not a very effective means to organize large groups of people. People want to be a part of something larger than themselves, be it a political party, a nation, a sports team, or a religion. And accepting the world as a cold rock floating through an empty vacuum of a godless universe where a bunch of monkeys treat each other nicely for the sake of 'not being a dick' does not hold a lot of emotional appeal for them, so they defend their systems of belief/social organization that allows them to deny their own mortality/limitations. Read Ernest Becker's The Denial of Death or look into the research his work inspired, terror management theory, as highlighted in the film Fligh from Death.

Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not Bill O'Reilly saying the Nazis or Stalin happened because people didn't have religion. I think the problem is that religious institutions aren't relevant to lots of peoples' lives in the modern world. Religious institutions haven't fallen off because people 'lack faith' or are 'wicked,' they've fallen off because an abstract absent god isn't as relevant to a world that has become dominated by deadlines, bottom lines, and credit lines.

 

The reason that people feel Agnostics and Aethist don't have morals - etc
is
IMO
Basically. . .they don't have any frame of Reference

Are You an Agnostic? Aethist?
What are you morals? Are they written anywhere?

The reaosn Agnostics and Aethist can Attack religious people is because
they can goto this book . . .and read off what religious folx espouse to beleive

SEE SEE YOU SAY THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!!
Do Aethist have a book like this? Agnostics?

so at anytime . . an aethist changes his mind . . or waffles . . or lies
he can't be called on it . .cause their is not commonality
One Aethist maybe a Pacifist ..the next a gun nutt . . the third somewhere in the middle. What are the beleifs of Aethism . . out side of THERE IS NO GOD?

Easy to Attack Christians - say.. uhm CATHOLICS
They are all suppose to beleive the same or similar things
but
You take 1000 Aethist . . you got 1000 ideals of what morals should be

The question is: Was is the CORE BELEIFS of an Aethist/Agnostic
what are their CORE VALUES
well . .
you cannot say because it changes from person to person

You can for a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindi, Etc
because they have a book . . .the book says what they SUPPOSE to be
with Aethist
There is no book . . not commonality . . .etc
So in a sense it is not that
THIS ONE AETHIST has no morals
[Morals being an agreed upon set of ideals on behavior by a group of individuals]
because. . . among Aethist . . there are not universal ideals
so AETHIST the GROUP don't have morals . .. . Each individual does
but the group does not
because their really is no GROUP

[I mean the National Association of Aethist . . if it exists . .may write a listing of what should be the morality of an aethist but how many aethist would subscribe to it. . because the moment that do that they maybe considered a bit of a religion . . also . . they would all question who the ***** are those guys to tell us what our morals should be . . .Aethism by nature IMO is very individualistic . . i could be wrong]

I think I am babbling but I will make one more point
An American Aethist's Morality . . is probably more of an general American Morality
meaning
His morality will probably be closer to an American Christians than an iraqi Aethist. . . who imo would probably have morality closer to an Iraqi religious person
So
In a sense the Aethism does not influence their morality as much as country/group/etc
whereas
Religion does have more of an effect


Questions: If you are an aethist . . . do you think all aethist have the same morality . . . .and that morality can be documented into a book for the religious folx to see? If so, what percentage of Aethist do you think would probably not subscribe to all the tenets of this book? Do you think that percentage would be greater or smaller than the percentage of people of a various religion that don't subscribe to all the tenets of their book?

Rocket River

 

Basically you saying
Obama did something . . which imo is morally bankrupt . . .to do good?
I think faking a religion . . .is not a morally good thing to do . . no matter what your goals

If I lied cheated and stole to feed my family . . even if you understand . .it is still not morally right

Rocket River
. . I am not ready to paint Obama with that brush

 

The majority of people do feel remorse when they feel personally responsible. However, in today's mass society, it's difficult to feel personally responsible for too much. I would really recommend you take a look at the movie Flight from Death, I just found a link to the entire documentary on YouTube, here. SOME people who DO believe in religion, immediately villfiy/demonize those who do not because they are a direct challenge to the belief system that exorcises their greatest source of anxiety: their own mortality.

So, I think that we may have confused the somewhat issue here. It's not so much that people believe religion is NECESSARY to have some system of morality, but that they use the charge of immorality/nihilism to defend their own system against non-believers. And since many people who were raised to be religious learned their personal values THROUGH religious teachings, they feel that an assault on there religion is an assault on those values, or that they would have to surrender those values if they stopped believing in their religion. Just like they want an ultimate reason to how the world began, or why we're here, they want an ultimate answer to why certain things are right and others are wrong. God is the most ultimate answer you can find and so they are very unwilling to give that up, and very willing to demonize those who would.

It's just like when someone says your favorite band sucks, your immeidate thought is to call that person a moron or a douche. This is the same thing but on a much grander scale.