i say ... that we need them both ... if one of them is not scoring ... the another is ------------------ to be the best go through the rocks(rockets)
isnt this getting a little old? ------------------ http://www.democrats.com mgh 1925-2001 [This message has been edited by dc rock (edited April 07, 2001).]
Funny how this thread gets few posts when every other thread seems to eventually evolve into a Francis vs. Mobley discussion. ------------------ "Any event, once it has occurred, can be made to appear inevitable by a competent historian." Lee Simonson
maybe, maybe no ------------------ Early man walked away, as modern man took control, Their minds weren't all the same, to conquer was their goal, So he built his great empire, and he slaughtered his own kind, He died a confused man, killed himself with his own mind.
Power Dancers have new uniforms. ------------------ President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
Custevo ------------------ Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon is the greatest player in the history of basketball. If you disagree, you are not a Rocket fan.
change of subject: whos PROGRESS are you more pleased with, Steve or Cuttino? Thoughts ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball www.hanta-force.com
Does it really matter who is better...I mean we have both of them, and they don't have to guard each other during the games. ------------------
Progress-wise, Cuttino, no doubt. Steve is better than last year, but not WORLDS better. Cat is a totally different player -- he's decisive, he's a huge threat and he's clutch. And throughout the season, he's been making better and better decisions. Coming from the mid 2nd round to being one of the best 2 guards in the NBA is as much progress as one could possibly hope for. ------------------ "Up and down, inside out, outside in, some you lose some you win" -- DMB -> "Sweet Up and Down"
Well Cuttino has gotten the playing time this year and has started 44 out of his 74 games his rebounding has improved greatly , he's making good on his extra 8 minutes , Francis is slightly better than Mobley in all the stats . 2000-2001 Steve Francis Games 75 Games started 74 Minutes per game 39.9 FG% .448 3point% .390 FT% .835 Off rebounds 2.40 def rebounds 4.50 total rebounds 6.90 APG 6.4 SPG 1.85 BPG .41 Turnovers PG 3.24 Fouls Per game 3.40 Points per game 19.8 Cuttino Mobley Games 74 GS 44 MPG 38.0 FG% .432 3P% .366 FT%.829 ORPG 1.00 DRPG 3.90 RPG 5.00 APG 2.4 SPG 1.09 BPG .35 TPG 2.07 Fouls PG 2.20 PPG 19.7 [/list=a] 1999-2000 Steve Francis Games 77 GS 77 Mins PG 36.1 FG%.445 3P%.345 FT%.786 ORPG 2.00 DRPG 3.30 RPG 5.30 APG 6.6 SPG 1.53 BPG .38 Turnovers PG 3.97 Fouls PG 3.00 PPG 18.0 Cuttino Mobley Games 81 GS 8 Mins PG 30.8 FG%.430 3P%.356 FT%.847 ORPG.70 DRPG 2.80 RPG 3.60 APG 2.6 SPG 1.07 BPG.40 Turnovers PG 2.30 Fouls PG 2.10 PPG 15.8 [/list=a] ------------------ http://bbs.clutchcity.net [This message has been edited by moestavern19 (edited April 08, 2001).]
Once again I must explain how things really are in the game of basketball to the people on this board. Gather round children. Because Cuttinno Mobley is playing with an explosive, amazing, point guard he can be very affective. He would not be as affective without Steve. Steve is a threat that allows Mobely to thrive. However Steve would be just as good without Cat. Steve Francis is an excelent point guard who creates oppurtunities. Also, he's much, much, much smarter than Cuttino. (think back to all the times he's held the ball with time running out, efter drawing the double team). Steve Francis is a superior basketball player, except for one on one slashes to the basket( he doesn't have that reach). Point 2- REBOUNDS!!!! Fromobile- ------------------
Oh Oh, teacher...fromobile....I have a question! What makes Francis an awesome point guard? Seriously, what makes him better than Sam Cassell, other than potential? Seriously! I'll call him an awesome shooting guard playing the point, but he's got several point guard deficiences. And Lenny Wilkens, Doc Rivers, and others disagree with your assessment of Mobley. I mean, come on, his ISOs place Francis on the far wing. How is Francis's presence making any difference whatsoever. And Mobley clearly runs the pick n roll better than Francis.
HP, Don't agree with fromobile's analysis either, but I have to disagree with you about the pick and roll. At the beginning of the year, I would have definitely said Cat ran it better, but now I would have to go with Francis. I feel like there's a better chance of success with Francis running 24 high. Also, Francis runs the high pick play VERY well, like we saw in the San Antonio game with Bullard. This may be why Rudy has not run as many pick and rolls for Cuttino, because he feels he can be more effective in a different set. ------------------
Yes, his isos are nice, but they aren't everything. He's not nearly as multi dimensional as Steve is. He's got no brain. Lenny and Doc are probably trying to lure cuttinno away from Houston because they need scorers. Steve is a better passer, defender, ball handler, he's stronger, he's got a much better sence of where everyone is on the floor, he makes better and faster descisions. You ask players about Houston, Cuttino isn't the first person out of thier mouths, it's Steve (if they don't say "back court"). Steve makes us win ball games. Cuttino is a maniac, and I love him, but he is not to be trusted with the ball too much. He's just too dumb. If you put both players on the block right now, Steve offers would probably double the size of Cuttino offers. ------------------
and not, not just because of potential. Cuttino is not double teamed as quickly withg Steve out there. They've got to be very careful about leaving him alone. I don't understadnt eh Sam Cassel question tacoma...but he isn't better than Sam Cassel right now.......neither is Cuttino. ------------------
...but Mobley is under contract for the next 6 seasons at a bargain basement price!! Who else could we get for the league average who could be as good as Cat? ------------------
Fromobile Teacher...I don't think you are very objective...you didn't answer my question. You said Francis is a very, very great point guard...why? You said Cuttino was merely average without a star. How does Francis on the far wing make Cuttino's ISOs and pnr so very easy, relatively speaking to the vice versa situation of Francis running the same plays and Cat on the wing. I never said who I thought was better. I just don't agree with your assessment of Cuttino being nothing without Francis. I do agree with you that Francis is not better than Cassell as a point right now. You know, he may never get to Cassell's level as a point. That's why Rudy's system is so great for these guards, because we can have essentially two shooting guards in at once. If you want me to answer the thread, Francis has the superior midrange game, including a very good turnaround J. This is his bread n butter. This is what makes him a star, along with his hops! The combination of those threats are what place the defenders at his mercy. Mobley's combo is a lessor midrange but easier to reproduce go-to move based on sheer speed and 101 ways to finish. Francis hops also allow us to overload the strong side for plays involving an alley-oop threat. Francis is a natural rebounder. The defenses are improving equally in my book. Cat has definitely improved. FT shooting looks to favor Mobley overtime...lifetime 83% and shooting 88% since December to Francis's 81%. I think they are both equally wild and stupid when it comes to fulfilling their different roles. Why does Mobley lean on stop and pops, when he should just jump balanced? Why does Francis look to pass high to guys underneath all the time like alley-oop score more points? Just do a wrap around when it is the easier pass. Francis tries to do too much with overly difficult dribbling moves; Mobley is too focused on the rim to see his teammates. Mobley is the better finisher...I agree with Rudy on that, and everyone can see Mobes has the better ability to create with his fast first step. Francis is no Sam Cassell when it comes to smarts at the point guard role, and getting teammates involved. Francis has much to learn. Saying he gets players involved more than Cuttino, is just one of those "Ok, what is your point" comments when I compare him to the league's point guards not our team's shooting guard, especially since Moochie is better than Francis at getting teammates involved and pushing the tempo. Moochie is also the better dribbler. I love Francis, but he is not improving enough at the point to make me call him very, very great. His midrange game is very exciting to see. Overtime, I believe that is the key to all his success. Stevie...listen to Calvin and just do your midrange thing, and quit trying to outduel Mobley's drives. Eventually, the league will have to come get your stop n pop, then your big men will be open and you'll be a 9 assist/gm point guard. As for you non-existent go-to move Stevie, what about a spin move WITHOUT picking up your dribble...watch some tapes of Drexler and Payton. TPL, I believe Cat and Steve get guarded the same way on pnr. The primary objective of all pnr's is for the guard to lose his man, right? The defense must stop that first. In our case, to lose his man so he can get to the middle of the free throw line. That is the first measure. How many times does our guard successfully use the pick to reach the middle. Secondly, how often is the pick successful enough to free the roller for the pass that he can use to score. Thirdly, how successful is the guard at just shooting over the pick. from what I've seen, Cuttino gets into the middle more often that Francis. I also count all the times Francis waves off the picker to ISO. That is a big number. I expect some to apply blind logic to this and say that Francis doesn't get to the middle because the defense stops him with aggressive traps. True. In fact, that all began last January, and I've been reporting it ever since then. I've been reporting the high pick with Bullard since January 2000 too TPL. It is a solid play, one which we do not run with Mobley. But, it ONLY works with Bullard, so you have to put up with Bullard's defense to run that play. Still, Moochie runs it from the middle, and we beat LA with that. Is Francis better than Moochie at the High roller play. What also is true, is Cuttino has been getting trapped like crazy, too. They do not want Cat in the middle anymore that Steve. What I've seen Cat do that Steve doesn't do is Cat will maintain his dribble and let the trap "dissolve" as the trapping PF tries to switch back with the guard. During that switch back (the dissolution of the trap), Cuttino takes his dribble to the middle with success. I've never seen Francis maintain his dribble against the trap. Thus the trap wins at taking the primary objective of the pnr away. Sure, we have beaten the trap with passes to the roller, but the rotating D is getting better through the league on stopping us. I feel Mobley uses the roller at a higher clip than Francis...again considering the amount of times Francis waves off the picker coming over and just decides to ISO to the baseline. Francis waving off the picker to ISO, and his less success at ISOing than Mobley, is why I do not think his hybrid SG/PG play is as good as Sam Cassell as pure point guard. And it is why I say Mobley's pnr is better. Mobley gets into the middle more often where the pnr is primarily trying to get him to. Francis does not achieve the primary objective of the pnr at a consistent clip to Mobley.
