Are you willing to give Francis as much time as the League has given Jason Williams to LEARN the PG positions? Hell how long before Payton or Stockton started and produced? rocket River
They are completely different situations though. Jason Williams was and is always a PG with great natural playmaking skills (namely court vision and organizational/passing skills). He just becomes smarter and more under control this year so that makes him more effective. Steve Francis was and is always a great all-around scorer with average playmaking skills. So even he does become smarter and more under control, his PG skills still won't improve much because those things are natural born and can't be learnt as easily. Don't force Francis to do something he can't do. Put him where his natural skills shine, i.e. scoring. And yeah Payton and Stockton are all natural PGs. They started to deliver from day one. If not day one, then 2nd year. I believe that their teams made playoffs every year they played. So what is your point?
1 more point, I don't necessarily think that we should put Francis at the 2 full time. But we do need a guard with better ballhandling and playmaking skills than Mobley to put pressure off Francis a bit. Sort of like Penny for Marbury. They shared ballhandling and playmaking duties for the Suns I believe.
As far as stats go: Gary Payton 90-91: 7.2ppg, 6.4apg, 3rpg, 2spg (82games-82starts) 91-92: 9.4ppg, 6.2apg, 3.6rpg, 1.8spg (81 - 79) 92-93: 13.5ppg, 4.9apg, 3.4rpg, 2.4spg (82 - 78) 93-94: 16.5ppg, 6apg, 3.3rpg, 2.2spg (82 - 82) John Stockton 84-85: 5.6ppg, 5.1apg, 1.3rpg, 1.3spg (82 - 5) 85-86: 7.7ppg, 7.4apg, 2.2rpg, 1.9spg (82 - 38) 86-87: 7.9ppg, 8.2apg, 1.8rpg, 2.1spg (82 - 2) 87-88: 14.7ppg, 13.8apg, 2.9rpg, 2.9spg (82 - 79) I'm not sure of their team records during that time, but as far as stats go, they're not as impressive as Steve's.
Oh sorry I don't know about Payton's and Stockton's numbers. But I am still not sure if ballhandling and playmaking skills can ever be "learnt". I don't know about Payton and Stockton. But I've watched Jason Williams played. He's a terrible decision maker and poor shooter before but still IMO he's a better ballhandler and playmaker in his rookie season than Francis's in his 4th season.
JW has like one year more experience in the NBA. So Francis has had his time. Stevie has never shown the ability to make any of his big men better. Stevie plays one on one basketball and passes the ball when he has to not when he should. JW has many faults (poor D, questionable shot selection, trying to make the perfect pass) but his skills as a PG have never been questioned. He makes nearly impossible passes look easy.
it took payton a few years to become a great play maker, with alot of assists, Francis wil be a great play maker, but still, he has 6 assists per game, only a few have more then 8 assists, that isn't that much of a difference. and francis is a great scorer.
Yeah, one thing to remember also is, J Will could be kinda eradict at times throughout his career. But this year has been different and I have been extremely impressed with his play. And I have to give all the credit for that change to Hubie Brown! The Grizz will be the most improved team next year. Their coach has them playing great ball, beside that JWest will work magic in the offseason. Mark my words, in 2 years the Grizz will be a 45 - 50 win team...
Given the spectacular success of the JDub turnaround ... I wonder what Hubie could do with Franchise! Damn, I sure wouldn't mind Jdub dishing to Yao and a shooter on the wing.
i don't understand this. this thread is talking about the way the position is (correctly) played, and you come in with numbers and stats???? numbers do not matter. letters do. namely, the letter "w", which is much easier to achieve when the man that has the ball every time down court is looking to set up 4 other people instead of looking to set himself up. you want #s? try this: 1 man versus 9, looking for a shot....or 5 men working together versus 5, looking for the easiest shot on the court?
Its stupid to say numbers don't matter. I'm sorry it just is. It's no coincidence that the top five assist per game players in NBA history are Magic, Stocton, Oscar Robertson, Jason Kidd, and Isiah Thomas. Five of the best passers in the NBA and the numbers prove it. Just because somebody proved you wrong with factual evidence is no reason to start questioning the whole record keeping system of the NBA.
Who among these guys you mentioned got the max after their rookie contract? Who told you White Chocolate was given more time? Wasn't he the same player ScaTown dumped for Bibby because he did not fit? Truth be told - the situations are all different (no doubt).
Well, since Payton and Stocton played well before the new Collective Bargaining Agreement, You're right, neither one got the max contract.
first of all, how did someone prove me wrong with factual evidence? second, where does larry bird rank in stats? yet he's one of the biggest winners of all time. where does bill russell rank in stats? yet he's THE biggest winner of all time. isn't karl malone, statistically speaking, one of the best players of all time? how many rings does he have? same for john stockton. how about dominique wilkins? he's one of the highest scorers, #s wise, of all time...how many rings does he have? how about andre miller? assist leader last year, and among the leaders this year. now how many victories has he had? how about tmac? scoring leader this year, with what chance of winning a championship? how about lloyd free (aka: world b. free). he was always one of the great scorers. how many rings, again? pistol pete maravich was a legend with how many rings? oscar robertson, as well. he was a numbers king for years with zero rings until he got with the right team. how about walter davis? alex english? mark price? reggie theus? reggie miller? these are all, numbers wise, great players...but the reality is that they are not considered great winners. #s mean ****. wins matter. disprove that.
btw, pgabriel, if it isn't obvious already, i'm against "statistics" in general, because they don't measure how the person ultimately affects the game. watch the spurs play. as much as i hate them, they have two players (at least) that have HUGE impacts on game, but don't always have the "numbers" to show it - malik rose and menudo ginobili. those two guys don't have the gaudy numbers, but they have as big, if not a bigger positive impact, than guys like cat mobley...
