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Which team has the most FEARSOME lineup in baseball?

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by LiLStevie3, Jul 22, 2001.

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  1. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Which team has the best lineup in baseball? I would say:

    1)Houston: Killer B's, Biggio, Bagwell, and Berkman, PLUS Alou and Hidalgo? [​IMG] Imagine if Hidalgo gets back on the tear he was on last year....Absolutely outstanding.
    2)Seattle:Ichiro, Edgar, Olerud, Boone, and Cameron are phenomenal.
    3)Cleveland: Alomar, Thome, and Gonzalez, plus Marty Cordova is a good hitter as well. Alomar and Gonzalez are 2 of the 5 best hitters in the AL, and Thome is one of the top 3 power hitters in the AL.
    4)Colorado:pierre, Neifi Perez, Larry Walker, Todd Helton, and Cirillo form a scary 1 through 5 lineup. And they added Alex Ochoa....
    5)Texas:ARod, Palmiero, and IRod are great, now if they could only get some pitching....(IRod is most likely gone by next year)

    Honorable Mention:New York Yankees: Jeter(not this year) and Bernie are as good as it gets. Posada is the best hitting catcher in the AL after Ivan Rodriguez.
    Honorable Menton #2: The LA Dodgers have a great lineup as well with Green, Sheffield, and LoDuca.

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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 22, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 22, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 22, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 22, 2001).]
     
    #1 LiLStevie3, Jul 22, 2001
  2. DEANBCURTIS

    DEANBCURTIS Member

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    So you would rather face Nomar, Manny, Nixon, Bichette, and Everett instead of those listed?

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    Ceo of the Walt Williams and Lisa Malosky fan club.


    atheistalliance.org


    [This message has been edited by DEANBCURTIS (edited July 22, 2001).]
     
    #2 DEANBCURTIS, Jul 22, 2001
  3. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Nomar and Everett are on the DL
    , and Trot Nixon is a decent but not great hitter.


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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center
     
    #3 LiLStevie3, Jul 22, 2001
  4. DEANBCURTIS

    DEANBCURTIS Member

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    Yes, but when they are healthy thats a great lineup.

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    Ceo of the Walt Williams and Lisa Malosky fan club.


    atheistalliance.org
     
    #4 DEANBCURTIS, Jul 22, 2001
  5. RKMAN

    RKMAN Member

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    Yes, yes I would. Pretty boy Nomar would break a nail, we would just walk Manny, Nixon is a strikeout waiting to happen, ditto with Bitchette, and Everett can't even walk...


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    RKMAN

    Proud believer of the 2001 World Champion Houston Astros.
     
    #5 RKMAN, Jul 23, 2001
  6. haven

    haven Member

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    Actually, Ichiro is slightly better than average. He's the most over-hyped player ever, possibly.

    His average is terrific. His OBP is average. His slugging % sucks. His fielding is good, but not superb because his arm is weak.

    OPS is the best measure of offensive performance by far. He chalks up as a major league average player. As of last weak, it wasn't even at .900. Lots of other outfielders are in the 1100 range, like Bonds and Berkman. Bagwell, in a bad year, is at about 1000 I believe. And as for his stealing ability: even if you give him an automatic steal for every single, his Runs Created doesn't become exceptional.

    He's the New Tony Gwynn: lots of singles, but not much else. To be a great player, Ichiro needs to: 1. learn how to take a walk for God's sake, 2. hit something besides a single, and 3. get a stronger throwing arm.

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    Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
    (edited July 23, 2001).]


    [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
    #6 haven, Jul 23, 2001
  7. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Ichiro is a very clutch hitter. I think that most or all of his homers have come in clutch situations to either win or tie the game. Ichiro has a cannon for an arm, and is an outstanding fielder. He is not average. His 43 RBI for a leadoff hitter is decent/good. He also has 8 triples(second in the AL) and 22 doubles, and he leads the league in hits by far and he leads the league in runs. He is second in SBs and 9th in total bases, which is outstanding for a leadoff hitter. His .448 sluggin percentage is near the top among leadoff hitters. He manufactures most of the Seattle runs with his speed(just about every player in the AL and every broadcaster say that he is the fastest player in the majors). Ichiro is a super player.


    I agree that he is over-hyped and his OBP and OPS are mediocre, but that doesn't mean that he isn't an absolutely outstanding player. A new Tony Gwynn isn't bad either, hitting wise, but Ichiro is much more of a complete player than Tony Gwynn.


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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
    #7 LiLStevie3, Jul 23, 2001
  8. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Don't forget that Ichiro is doing all this in his first year in America. He hasn't seen the pitchers or the ballparks before. Plus he has hoards of media and fans adoring and following his every move. That's a lot of pressure and attention on him. He is still performing at an amazing level.

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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center
     
    #8 LiLStevie3, Jul 23, 2001
  9. haven

    haven Member

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    Ichiro Suzuki is 103 in MLB in OPS. Top 5 hitter? When he ranks 103rd in the most important hitting stats?

    BTW, there is no such thing as a "clutch hiter." This has been definitively proven statistically. There has yet to be a major league player who consistently performs well over the course of an entire career in close-and-late situations to a level that is statistically significant. "clutch performers" receive that term because they're generally talented guys who happen to do well in a situation that gives them a lot of press.

    And his arm is weak. He does have great range. [​IMG].



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    Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
     
    #9 haven, Jul 23, 2001
  10. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Don't mind haven. He thinks Ichiro is slightly better than average and then says he's the new Tony Gwynn, only one of the greatest hitters in the history of baseball. Okaaaaaaaay... Ichiro has been on pace to break Sisler's single season hit record and has won 7 consecutive Japanese batting titles. Yeah, that's about slightly better than average. Oh by the way, his team has the best record in baseball in large part because of the energy he has brought to the team.

    Also, Ichiro has a great arm and fabulous instincts in the field and on the bases. Feel free to catch a ball game sometime haven and maybe you'll learn why Neyer and his calculator have never managed a major league baseball team.

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    First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
     
    #10 Timing, Jul 23, 2001
  11. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Oh yeah, since there is no such thing as clutch performers who would any of yall rather have at the plate in the bottom of the ninth of game 7 in the playoffs tied with a runner on second. Bagwell or Alou? Remember, there's no such thing as clutch performers people.

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    First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
     
    #11 Timing, Jul 23, 2001
  12. haven

    haven Member

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    Timing:

    *yawn*

    Why is it, then, that analysts who do statistical analysis are almost always more accurate than those who rely on their gut? You never have answered that question. You know, stats do have basis in reality. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE THE DIRECT RESULT OF GAMES. Stats are games on paper.

    BTW, I've been to more than 20 games this year. Oops.

    Gwynn's another player that's always been overrated. And I do think Ichiro is a quality player. He's good. Not great. That Seattle team is winning because of good hitting and terrific pitching... and a lot of luck with injuries and career years.

    Fans look at average before they look at OBP and OPS. That's a result of baseball cards, more than anything else, imo. Kids don't look to see how many walks a player garnered. And they don't look at how many assists an outfielder has. Baseball for along time was a good ole boy management-league. That's changing. The best GM's are really starting to look deeper...

    Not everything is a result of big market/small market dynamics. Some teams have consistently played better by looking at "other factors."

    As much as I hate them, Cashman of the Yankees is a very smart GM. Yes, the Yankees have a huge salaried team. But other teams are usually right around them, but don't win as much. Cashman pays attention to the important stats. The Orioles have a bad organizaiton because they only look at surface #'s... the Rangers made the mistake of not planning on declining skills due to age. Etc.

    Why are you so eager to dismiss everything I say when you don't even bother arguing?

    BTW... w/Bagwell and Alou, how many games have each played in the playoffs? Answer: not enough ot make a judgement. A player sucks for a couple weeks in the regular season... it's to be expected. If the player has the bad luck for it to happen in th eplayoffs, and suddenly he's not clutch. You good ole boy :p.

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    Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.


    [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
    #12 haven, Jul 23, 2001
  13. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    What about the Padres???

    Klesko, Kotsay, Nevin, Trammell, Ben Davis.

    They're Seattle without the pitching. 0.789 Road OPS.....



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    #13 Joe Joe, Jul 23, 2001
  14. gr8-1

    gr8-1 Member

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    Ichiro has slowed down, but I think he's the best defensive right-fielder. He has an absolute CANNON, and it is very accurate. They say his throw that nailed Long at 3rd could have been made by one other player, Mr. Roberto Clemente.

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    #14 gr8-1, Jul 23, 2001
  15. gr8-1

    gr8-1 Member

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    lil stevie, I think Ichiro is fast, but is he the fastest player in baseball ? It's interesting. I heard Guzman can run well also. Anyone else ? Goodwin ?

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    "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
     
    #15 gr8-1, Jul 23, 2001
  16. Timing

    Timing Member

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    When you make absurd statements like, Tony Gwynn has always been overrated, what's the point of arguing with you?

    I have baseball cards, they have obp and slugging on them. Next...

    Bagwell and Alou have played enough playoff games for me and any other Astros fans to know who we'd rather have at the plate in a clutch situation.

    In regard to the Yankees, you're saying the fact they have had the highest payroll in baseball for 5 consecutive seasons is not a tremendous factor in them winning 4 of the last 5 World Series? Please... What if we added $50 million to the Astros payroll right now. We could send Elarton to AAA, have a Hampton and Mussina in the rotation, Jeff Nelson in the bullpen and still have a ton of money left over for the bench. How good would they be then? Yeah... pretty damn good I'd say.

    Stats do little to account for many things in baseball. Assists are not the measure of an outfielder's arm or ability. Great outfielders don't get run on because of REPUTATION so it's likely that a lesser outfielder will get many more chances and probably have more assists than a much better outfielder. According to you though, the lesser outfielder is statistically superior because he has more assists. The same can be said for hitters in many respects. Lineup arrangement, lefty righty matchups, etc. Reputation and other factors carry much more weight in baseball than your calculator will ever account for.

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    First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
     
    #16 Timing, Jul 23, 2001
  17. 4chuckie

    4chuckie Member

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    Gwynn was a great all-around player when he was younger (gold glove or two, and actually ran the bases well early on). Now he is still a great hitter but not a great around player.
    Ichiro has a GREAT arm! Who said before his arem was bad? Dude has a gun.
    I'll be curious to see how Ichiro does next year. GIve the pitchers a year to break down tape and see if he has any holes in his swing. Right now he is a great hitter but often the sophmore slump kicks in when the opponent has time to break down the film.
     
    #17 4chuckie, Jul 23, 2001
  18. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Guzman can run, so can Goodwin, as well as Roger Cedeno, Luis Castillo, Jimmy Rollins, and Alfonso Soriano. I guess it can be debated, but scouts, analysts, and the players themselves all say that Ichiro is the fastest player in the big leagues. I think he runs from home to first in 3 point something seconds, which is unheard of. Part of it is his incredible speed, part of it is that he is already running in the follow through of his swing.


    Haven: Bobby Valentine, Joe Torre, Peter Gammons, Barry Bonds, and Tsuyoshi Shinjo all have said that Ichiro is a top 5 hitter in the game. Bonds has played the Japanese in International games. Bobby V., although an idiot, has managed in Japan, and Tommy Lasorda is pretty much the international ambassador of baseball. I think they know a few things if they think that much of Ichiro. Your comments about Ichiro's arm are incorrect, his arm is probably the strongest in the big league's next to Raul Mondesi. His fielding instincts are awesome as well. Just think about this, most writers and analysts all consider Ichiro a Gold Glove outfielder, and this is his first year in America. He isn't used to the ballparks and their dimensions in America. He doesn't know the way the ball bounces off the wall, yet he still is considered one of the best outfielders in baseball.

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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center

    [This message has been edited by LiLStevie3 (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
    #18 LiLStevie3, Jul 23, 2001
  19. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Agreed, but I think Ichiro will be even better next year. I don't think he is the next Carlos Beltran.



    ------------------
    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center
     
    #19 LiLStevie3, Jul 23, 2001
  20. haven

    haven Member

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    Timing:

    It's possible that I'm wrong about his arm. It looked weak when I saw him play, last. Do you know how many assists he has this year? Couldn't find that.

    I'm not the only person to argue Tony Gwynn has been overrated. I think he made ESPN's list of the most overrated players of the past 20 years. Was he very good? yes. But some claimed he was the best RF of all time... an absurd statement when players like Ted Williams hit for similar average with significantly more power and better fielding (especially in the latter years of Gwynn's career). Many peole believe Gwynn was overrated... not just me. Absurd statement? Why?

    Kids don't look at OBP or slugging. They care about batting average. I know that's wha tmy friends and I did, at least.

    All those guys you mentioned... they're all old school. And I really hate to say this, but it's being a good ambassador of baseball to trump up Suzuki right now... being international and accepting, I suppose. Young progressive GM's are going ot realize that peoplw with low OBS's aren't the people you want to pay a fortune.

    Look, I think that "eye scouting" is a good tie-breaker:

    BUT ICHIRO SUZUKI IS 103rd IN THE LEAGUE IN THE MOST RELIABLE OFFENSIVE STAT.

    At that point, it's perfectly obvious that he's not a great hitter. Or even a very good one.

    Baseball is unique among sports because almost everything is statistically catalogued. There aren't many "intangibles" that don't get recorded. That allows for a unique perspective against the game that eliminates bias, etc.

    You may not like OPS, RC, etc... but the teams that emphasize those sort of stats are going to be the best. Sometime organize a team by runs scored... it's much more dependend on OPS than BA, I promise you.


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    Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.

    [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
    #20 haven, Jul 23, 2001
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