Which starter has the best +/- in the league?

Artest or Kobe.

 

charles hayes

 

Kobe does http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team=

 

Since this made the NBA Dish and not the GARM, I'd say, iono, Lebron James.

 

Kobe is best at +/-. He is not the best at +/-/min.

 

ah! Per minute. Sorry missed that part

 

I remember reading something about Varejao passing Artest. That was a while back though.

 

Players on the best teams will always have a high +/- because, well, their team is good and always outscores opponents. It's really a pretty useless statistic.

 

Side show andy isn't a starter though.

 

Kobe's been pretty inefficient lately with his poor shooting and broken fingers. He's so dinged up, it's hardly surprising. Also, he's played games without Pau and Artest, while Artest missed several games while Pau was out. If you haven't noticed, the Lakers are much, MUCH better with Pau than without.

 

I wish people would stop using the phrase "useless statistic". It is information, and as such it is useful.

If it was a redundant stat that only reflects how good the team you're on is, then everyone on the same team would have the same +/-.

 

I said "pretty useless," implying not COMPLETELY useless.

The only use for +/- I can see is within a team. Comparing Team A and Team B's players' +/- is not useful. Comparing the players' +/- within Team A can be.

 

I think its useful to know who are the impact players on the better performing teams. If that is all raw +/- tells you, it is still good to know.

Consider the following lists. I compiled top 20 current players in total +/- and +/- per 48 minutes since the 2006/2007 season (minimum 4000 minutes played):

rnk      player              plus-minus           rnk       player         plus-minus/48min
1        James, LeBron       1726                 1         Ginobili, Manu      9.2
2        Bryant, Kobe        1678                 2         Duncan, Tim         8.7
3        Duncan, Tim         1639                 3         Garnett, Kevin      8.3
4        Nowitzki, Dirk      1577                 4         Pierce, Paul        8.1
5        Nash, Steve         1517                 5         Odom, Lamar         8.1
6        Pierce, Paul        1464                 6         Rondo, Rajon        8.0
7        Odom, Lamar         1460                 7         Varejao, Anderson   7.9
8        Allen, Ray          1363                 8         Nash, Steve         7.8
9        Howard, Dwight      1359                 9         Parker, Tony        7.6
10       Garnett, Kevin      1355                 10        James, LeBron       7.6
11       Rondo, Rajon        1331                 11        Bryant, Kobe        7.5
12       Parker, Tony        1327                 12        Nowitzki, Dirk      7.5
13       Billups, Chauncey   1267                 13        Fisher, Derek       7.4
14       Fisher, Derek       1233                 14        Allen, Ray          7.3
15       Ginobili, Manu      1219                 15        Ming, Yao           7.2
16       Varejao, Anderson   1113                 16        Howard, Josh        7.0
17       Turkoglu, Hedo      1095                 17        Billups, Chauncey   6.9
18       Howard, Josh        1074                 18        Ilgauskas, Zydrunas 6.5
19       Terry, Jason        1070                 19        Howard, Dwight      6.3
20       Stoudemire, Amare   1040                 20        Dampier, Erick      6.3


And here's a composite ranking of players that made both lists:

      player           plus-minus   plus-minus/48min
1     Duncan, Tim         1639           8.7
2     Pierce, Paul        1464           8.1
3     James, LeBron       1726           7.6
4     Odom, Lamar         1460           8.1
5     Bryant, Kobe        1678           7.5
6     Nash, Steve         1517           7.8
7     Garnett, Kevin      1355           8.3
8     Nowitzki, Dirk      1577           7.5
9     Ginobili, Manu      1219           9.2
10    Rondo, Rajon        1331           8.0
11    Parker, Tony        1327           7.6
12    Allen, Ray          1363           7.3
13    Varejao, Anderson   1113           7.9
14    Fisher, Derek       1233           7.4
15    Howard, Dwight      1359           6.3
16    Billups, Chauncey   1267           6.9
17    Howard, Josh        1074           7.0


Isn't it intriguing that the final list is dominated by established all-stars or super role players? And not a single box score statistic was used to arrive at it -- its simply based on minutes played and how much better their team was compared to the opponent with them on the floor. That said, people shouldn't look at it as a definitive list or ranking of the "best players in the league". I don't think such lists exist.

 

I find it rather surprising that Chris Paul didn't make any of those lists, despite being the sole proprietor, beginning and end of anything the Hornets do offensively on the basketball court.

 

I think that's indicative of how collectively awful his teammates have been. Because based on adjusted +/- the last 3 years from hoopnumbers.com, he's at the top of the pile.

He ranks 30th and 46th in each of the lists.

 

So did we end up getting the answer yet?

It's Pau Gasol right? +/- of 0.277 per minute.

Varejao is off the bench, so his 0.281 per minute doesn't count!

 

I think +/- is a useful stat when you compare players of the same position on the same team. You can't compare different positions and you can't compare across teams either.

 

Pretty useless stat. No one here has really made it useful.