Given that Big Z just became the franchises leader in games played, I found tonight fitting to put his historical contributions into perspective. A friend of mine scoffed at the second question, as if Big Z's career hadnt been deserving of provoking such a thought process. But seriously, every player should have a ranking and placement among his peer group, and any true historian/fanatic of the game should raise these questions. So which Cavs would you rate ahead of Z? As for the All-Time rankings, Ive gone through the trouble of eliminating all the centers that are clearly ahead of Big Z to create a peer group of players around his stature. Which would you rate ahead of Big Z? Top Centers Outside the Top25-30 All-Time (ShotClock Era) Brad Miller Bill Lambeer Vlade Divac Arvydas Sabonis Rik Smits Bill Cartwright Clyde Lovellette Marcus Camby Elden Cambell Is Big Z Top 25, Top 30, or Top40 Material?
I will start the list of: 1. Cherokee Parks Now everyone else can post one center until we get the top 40. No repeats! :grin: I just kid, I am actually a fan of Big Z. He plays hard out there and has a pretty good skill set. Not sure if he is top 40; I would have to think about that. Unfortunately, I don't have that time at the moment, but this is a very intriguing and interesting subject.
As far as Cavs centers, I would take Brad Daugherty over Ilgauskas easily. As far as centers all time, I think we could easily come up with a list of at least 35 centers who were clearly better than Ilgauskas. Probably easier to do it by era. 60's (and before): Wilt, Russell, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Mikan, Johnny 'Red' Kerr, Neil Johnston, 'Easy' Ed Macauley 70's: Willis Reed, KAJ, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Spencer Haywood, Mel Daniels, Artis Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Jack Sikma 80's: Robert Parish, Buck Williams, Bill Laimbeer, Dream, Mark Eaton, Kevin Willis 90's: Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo, Brad Daugherty, Shaq Current: Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace I'm sure I'm missing names, and I have 35 right here. I also excluded some forward/centers who have not that great claims to being centers. I don't think Big Z would be in the top 40 centers of all time.
That's more than 40 just off the top of my head. I'm sure I am missing some of the 70's and 80's guys. He is a 14 and 7 career guy. Good but I'm not sure top 40 good. Kareem Wilt Cowens Cunningham Ewing Lucas Malone Mchale Oneal Hakeem Alonzo Parish Pettit Reed Russel Schayes Thurmond Unseld Walton Oneal Howard Duncan Ming Jefferson Stoudemire Rodman Bynum Sikma Oakley Daugherty Gasol Camby Mikan Robinson Hayes Kemp Mutombo Thorpe Sabonis Lanear Laimbeer Wallace Gilmore Williams
OK, I'll play... in no particular order... Here are 50 centers better than Big Z, a nickname originally given to Zelmo Beaty... Wilt Kareem Dream Russell Shaq Moses Walton Robinson Ewing Mikan Willis Reed Bob Lanier Dave Cowens Nate Thurmond Robert Parish Artis Gilmore Spencer Haywood Yao Ming Dwight Howard Wes Unseld Brad Miller Bill Lambeer Vlade Divac Arvydas Sabonis Rik Smits Ben Wallace Mark Eaton Tree Rollins Mutumbo Mourning Brad Daugherty Pat Cummings Dave Corzine Bill Cartwright Camby Zelmo Beaty James Edwards Jermaine O'Neal Billy Paultz Rony Seikaly Lisa Leslie Lauren Jackson Alvan Adams Emeka Okafor Olden Polynice Jack Sikma Roy Tarpley Mark West Daryl Dawkins Kevin Duckworth
Brad Daugherty >>>>>>> Ilgauskas I'd even give Larry Nance the nod ahead of Z Nate Thurmond only played his last 2 years there, but if he counts, he's at least in the discussion As far as the entire NBA history? We're talking about a guy that never managed 18 ppg over a season and couldn't win anything even as the second best player on his team. That lands him below Rik Smits, and certainly below anyone in the hall.
Eliminate the Hybrid forward-Centers, and guys who have played less than 10 years or so. Mikan doesnt belong on any list, pre shot clock era is an entirely different game. And not different in the sense that the 60's differs from the 00's, but in the sense that its like watching 2 different sports. But yea Top40 seems pretty hard to justify now
First of all, great players aren't defined by positions. Hakeem played the 4 and 5 because he was amazingly versatile. I think most great players have played multiple positions. That is what made them great, their versatility. Should Clyde not count when making a list of all time 2's because he played the 3. Got ya, take away anybody that wasn't so much of a stiff that they could only play the 5 ever. You would have Yao (wait he hasn't played 10 years), Manute, and Bradley. Sweet dude. This is why it is hard to just make a list of great "insert position here." You get into a debate over whether a guy really is a 3 or 4 or whatever. In reality, these superstars are often called to play whatever is needed (Magic played center before). I feel like any list should include all players that have played a good portion at that position. Otherwise you are really on making a sort of "thoroughbred" based argument that just doesn't work for the NBA. The NFL, sure, but not the NBA. How impressed/shocked equals you now?
Any Cavs? You didn't say Centers.. Price, Nance, Daugherty As an aside, I think Terrell Brandon could have been one of the all time great Cavs if he wasn't stuck behind Price until leaving (and if he wasn't so injury prone)
Most great players are defined by positions. Julius Erving was 3. Oscar was a 1. Jordan was a 2. Wilt, Jabbar, Russell, Shaq, Moses, Ewing, Walton, Mikan, and yes, Olajuwon were centers, not C/PFs. I don't get the desire by some on this board to make Dream into a 4. He was a 5. THE low post. In his book, he talks about proud he is to be a center. He was always a center... he learned from Moses... he kicked Sampson to the 4. On defense, he protected the paint and on offense, he commanded the low block. That is a what a center does. Yes, he may have guarded a 4, like Malone or Kemp, when they were the opposition's best low post scorer, but Dream was a center, tried and true. While he had the skills to play the PF position, that doesn't mean he was a PF. (And none of the other great centers were PFs either.)
