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Where do you draw the line - transgender

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by droxford, Feb 7, 2023.

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We all draw the line some where. Where do you draw the line?

  1. Society should refer to transgenders using their preferred pronouns

    19 vote(s)
    29.7%
  2. Definitions ("man", "woman", "gender", & "sex") should be changed/eliminated due to transgenders

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  3. It should be permissible for transgenders to share restroom/locker room with their identified gender

    14 vote(s)
    21.9%
  4. Transgenders should be able to participate in athletic & other competitions based on their identity

    6 vote(s)
    9.4%
  5. Transgenders should qualify for loans, grants, scholarships, & admissions based on their identity

    8 vote(s)
    12.5%
  6. Gender-specific organizations should be required to accept transgendrs based on their gender idntity

    7 vote(s)
    10.9%
  7. Historical medical records & birth certificats should be changed to only show transgenders' indntity

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  8. Transgenders <16 yrs should be able to hve sex-reassignmnt surgery/pubrty blockrs w/o parent consent

    2 vote(s)
    3.1%
  9. The U.S. government should provide finances for sex-reassigned surgeries and puberty-blocking drugs

    4 vote(s)
    6.3%
  10. None of the above

    43 vote(s)
    67.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    @AroundTheWorld

    Lesbians don't like dudes. By definition. This whole LGBT thing is a political sham. It ain't one group, same reason you don't put seals and sharks in the same exhibit at sea world.
    @ROXRAN
    @Salvy
    @Os Trigonum

    Martina ain't down with the nut sack.
     
  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    It amazes me that you think the type of individual who is trans as a teen experienced male privilege.

    Male privilege is in effect for males that take part in society. The ones who are in the jungle gym directing their boys and making fun of girls for their coodies and are adjusted in a social order. Those are the type of males that experience privilege. They have been adjusted into the hierarchial system.

    If you think the type of teen who has these internal struggles of basic identity are the ones benefiting from male privilege you are insane.


    Those type of people are the kids who are isolated who walk by themselves around their high school and sit alone in the cafeteria. How the hell do you draw these stupid ass conclusions?

    Do you even understand what male privilege is or did some gen z person you trust use that phrase before and now you just virtue signal it? You aren't saying anything insightful about male privilege because you have a basic misunderstanding of what it is.
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yes - I believe that someone that is born male gets the benefits of male entitlement starting at a very early age. We know that male infants and children are treated differently than female infants and children. Male entitlement does not magically start at 18 years old. Further, you are assuming that everyone that is trans was "passing" by the time they are teenagers and that isn't accurate.

    So yes - male entitlement is certainly present in a male that decides they want to be a trans woman. It is even more so the case for white men, who are higher on the scale.


    Male entitlement is pervasive and starts to impact people at a very young age. Expectations are largely based on sex in the patriarchy, how infants and children are treated in large part depends on their sex.

    Nope - they have already been colored or shaded by society and benefitted from it in some ways. Internal struggles are a separate issue, and those can be very serious.

    A male doesn't largely get to choose if they benefit from male privilege - it is just the effect of being a male.


    By high school someone has largely already benefitted from male privilege. It isn't about being isolated or popular.

    What you are describing is a real problem - but it has zero to do with male privilege.

    Yes - I am quite familiar with the term and the meaning and depth of the idea of male entitlement. I am a male, and a white male at that, so there are limitations to my understanding or how I can understand the impact of it. Your understanding of the topic is interesting.
     
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  4. bloodwings19

    bloodwings19 Member

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    Sports....... no way you can allow a transgender to cross to the female side.
     
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  5. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Not once have you expanded further on the idea that infants and children under the age of puberty are greatly impacted by male privilege. You have only stated it as a matter of fact. Hence why it sounds very virtue signally. There is no substance behind the claim.

    Male privilege is a result of social constructs. How a male interacts with society is where privilege is found. That implies that said male needs to be involved within said society. They must partake in society to get access to that privilege.

    And yes the vast majority of transgender youth are isolated individuals who are isolated from the early social orders that children experience and pick up when they enter a public school system interacting with other children their age. whatever privilege you might think they have because of their sex as 2 years olds is washed away the moment they interact with the social orders in public places like schools or playgrounds.

    You can make a claim that male to female transgender individuals don't experience some of the trials and tribulations that many women do such as the size and strength differences making many women feel more uncomfortable traveling alone. You can consider the absence of experiencing that fear as a type of privilege.

    But in terms of the type of privilege that most impacts things like social hierarchy and wealth, transgender youth and adults are not experiencing any of those privileges.

    The good ol'boys club with rooms full of cigar smoke where the decision making of nepotism and networking happens that gives men disproportionate access to wealth and social status is closed off to trans male to female individuals from a very early age.

    So at a certain point you seem to be outraged at something that has pretty much no impact on society for virtue signaling purposes.

    There is no effective means in which trans male to females are experiencing any meaningful concept of "privilege" that affects their social status and wealth.

    You might share some news story of a male to female trans person was some alpha male athlete who was popular in school but there is a reason that would be a news story. Because it's very rare compared to the isolated trans teen who is removed from social groups in their school.
     
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Government should stay out of this as much as possible.

    DD
     
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  7. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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  8. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I have read a great deal on this topic. From Peggy McIntosh 40 years ago to Kate Manne more recently and I have been interested in the topic for a number of reasons, from the fact that it is a negative for society as whole, to having a wife that is very involved in the academic and medical side of the issue and has written published works on the topic.

    There are debates on how male privilege is experienced by males that either are a minority or are gender non-normative. However, there isn't a lot of academic and scholarly views that male privilege does not impact or benefit women. The basis being that the general believe is that people are impacted by society from birth. So, a child that is born with a penis, and viewed as a male is treated differently than a child that is born with a vagina and has the corresponding sex.

    There are many books that will cite examples, and there are even some teachers that have discussed and written on the topic. However, the reality is someone that is born with a penis, is treated different and has different expectation placed on them. That is male privilege.

    It is pervasive - and that really is the point.

    Male privilege is a social construct - but it isn't just how a male interacts with society, but it is how society treats someone that they identify as male.

    We are exposed to society as soon as we come out of the womb, and someone born with a penis is viewed as a male. So, as we grown up, that is what we see, observe and experience from everything around us - our society and culture and biases.

    Can someone that has passed and lived as a woman for decades begin to realize that they have benefitted from the patriarchy and been shaped by it? If they are observant, of course. However this idea that it is all wiped clean and starts anew when someone is transgender is simply not true and if you think about it, it makes no sense.

    Male privilege extends far beyond a school setting - it is how your environment sees and has seen you and how you respond even on a sub conscious level to the environment around you.

    The experiences we have as infants and children don't just get washed away, they shape who we are and how we see the world. The idea that someone that has been viewed as a male by society, will then suddenly not make decisions or see the world through that lens is foolishness - and it is entitlement.

    I never said that transgendered people did not have their own struggles or have their own unique perspective, they certainly do and that should be respected and understood. However, the idea that someone that was born a male, and was viewed as a male by society - who then decides to become a woman and passes as a woman - hasn't experienced the benefits and impact of male entitlement is just not possible.

    Male privilege isn't as simple as wealth or being able to walk alone at night and not being scared. That is where the idea and topic began 40 years ago, it has expanded well beyond that at this point, with many of the impacts and benefits being not always easily recognizable. Think of it as almost micro aggressions.

    This is beyond an over-simplification of the issue - as male privilege extends well beyond these examples.

    No - you just don't know the topic well enough.

    No - this is false.

    If you want to have a discussion on "how much", then that is a valid discussion.
     
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  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    What premise are you defending now? You are meandering and not saying anything here. You aren't making any explicit claims.

    The only explicit claim you have made is being outraged at transgendered people for experiencing make privilege.

    Not once have you explained how this has positively benefited transgender females at the expense of cis females. Just give a explicit systemic example of something that at a societal level is benefiting transgender females at the expense of regular women.
     
  10. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    For all those who feel that transgender women are just men pretending to be women, what do you think of the fMRI data that shows their brains are actually structurally bent towards being women?
     
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  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Okay.

    We have to separate sex and gender because a lot of times they are treated interchangeable and that is not the case at all.

    As for the Cleveland Clinic Study and another one that was done in 2020 (which I assume you are talking about), I find them to be interesting and I would not be shocked at all that some or even many of those that identify as transgendered women do believe they are women, and that can certainly play a part in how our brain operated.

    Some studies have suggested that there may be some structural and functional differences between the brains of transgender and cisgender people, especially in areas related to self-body perception, sexual behavior, and gender identity. These differences may be present before hormonal treatment, suggesting that they are not simply the result of hormone exposure, but rather reflect an innate biological basis for gender identity.

    Again though - I would caution........

    These studies have limitations, such as small sample sizes, heterogeneity of transgender populations, lack of control groups, and methodological challenges. Therefore, more research is needed to confirm and explain these findings, and to understand how they relate to the psychological and social aspects of gender identity and dysphoria. Moreover, it is important to remember that brain structure and function are not deterministic of one’s gender identity or expression, and that there is a lot of diversity and variability among both transgender and cisgender people.

    At the end of the day - we just don't know definitely.

    What I think we can agree with is that a cis woman is not the same as a transwoman biologically.

    How important are those differences? I think that is up to society to decide ultimately.



     
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I'm talking about the 2022 study, which recruited subjects that had never undergone hormone therapy. Yes there are always limitations, but when you have a continuous stream of evidence point to the same conclusion - the likelihood of all of these studies being wrong drops significantly.

    It's with a pretty high confidence that we know people who are transgender just don't "believe" they are transgender, but they actually have different brain structures.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
     
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  13. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    When you are trying to put one underprivileged class of humans with another you are doing the work of wealthy right wing moguls @Nook . You understand this?

    It's an age old tactic by wealthy people at the top. The last thing want is for everyone group of people below the top hierarchy to come together. So they create these artificial divisions. You are being sneakily brainwashed to be complicit in creating a divisi where there is no natural one.
     
  14. Astrodome

    Astrodome Member
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    If Biden was a true ally, he would create a federal holiday celebrating the non-binaries.
     
  15. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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  16. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Except we don’t have a continuous stream of evidence coming out. We certainly are not at point where we can say with a high degree of confidence about such things.

    It will not surprise me if they are able to find a strong connection between transgenderism and certain brain levels. Again - gender and sex are different.

    Anyone that believes most transgendered people wake up and just decide to change genders is mistaken. It is legitimate.

    The issue for me is the current environment in the USA when it comes to the treatment of minors in the USA and how the medical field is the wild Wild West. My second issue is zealots on both sides rushing to take opinions and make them factual and scientifically based - when that isn’t the case.
     
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  17. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I understand that theory - and often times it has proven to be true, although often times one oppressed group will fight another oppressed group on their own terms without any other involvement.

    I support rights for the transgendered community, in my small circle of family and friends that I rely on and love are two transgendered people out of less that 8 people.

    I have an issue with extremists - as you can go so far left or right that you come out the other side.
     
  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I think the evidence is quite strong that transgenderism is a real physiological phenomenon - enough so that the medical community needs to take it seriously and a standard of care developed. It shouldn't be politicized or shaped by lobbying from either side - sadly it is. Regardless, there needs to be a credible pathway for minors who are transgender to be able to avoid going through puberty if they are truly transgender.
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I agree with most of what you say - but I am against puberty blockers for children, especially how they are being prescribed currently. My opinion may change when there is more data, but we know that puberty blockers are dangerous - giving them to children should be rare.
     
  20. AroundTheWorld

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