A post in another thread made me think about this, when it pointed out that while we all disagree about most players on the Rockets, everyone can agree that Moochie sucks. It's true: there are Yao-only fans, pro-Steve fans, and Cat lovers, but you never see anyone praising Moochie. I think he sucks, too, now. But... remember his first year, when he ran the offense like a "true" PG? Remember when people wanted to bench Mobley, move Steve to the 2, and start Moochie at the 1? He could run a break, find the open man, had good ball control, and didn't make as many boneheaded plays. Moochie was the "best back-up PG in the league" and could start on "about 10 teams in the NBA" according to the general consensus. What happened? Here's the possibilites, imo: 1. He was always overrated - true, to an extent; but he really did exhibit some positive traits for a while that Francis didn't have; and he did run the fast break effectively; and he didn't seem to dribble quite so much... 2. It's the contract, stupid! - Overachieving player works his ass off, gets contract; promptly loses all motivation; could have happened, but I don't think that really accounts for him being this bad; might explain lack of improvement and being out of shape, but not all the mental mistakes 3. team strategy - Moochie was better on an iso-ball team where he could just get the ball to Steve/Cat, wait for them to do something with it, then repeat; since he didn't really have to set up much of an offense, dribbling mattered less; this theory is somewhat corroborated by the fact that last year (when we got Yao and tried to leave all the isos a bit) was his first year of complete and total suckitude 4. lack of confidence - I think this has something to do with ti, but have no idea why it would last for so damned long Any other ideas for all of Moochie's (somewhat) good qualities totally disappearing?
I don't spend much time comtemplating the Mooch...it's at least 50-50 he'll be a Charlotte Bobcat next season. And comparing this season to any other is IMO somewhere between micro-analysis and self-perception. Moochie averaged a career high 27.4 mpg in Francis's ear problem season. On 27.4 mpg, here is that season versus the current: PPG...8.1 - 5.4 A/G...4.9 - 3.9 TO/G...1.9 - 2.1 A/TO ratio...2.6 - 1.9 REB/G...3.0 - 1.95 FGA/G...7.7 - 5.1 FTA/G...2.0 - 1.7 Nothing much new...same ol' same ol'....a few more TO's...a few fewer FGA's. IMO, the total difference is attributable to learning Gundy ball...dribble less, ISO less, pass more.
how does that explain his complete and utterness suckitude last year then? he was friggin terrible last year. he seems to have added a little to the suckitude factor this year, but he got most of it last year, and basically right off the bat too, not just a slow gradual building up of the crappiness. i'd say it's zones (which hurt our whole backcourt, our guards dominated with isos for a while) plus the extra weight last year plus never getting his quickness back this year even after losing the weight. watch him on the court, he's so much slower than he used to be. from what i remember of his first year + the next, he could change directions and do his herky jerky moves on just about anyone and eventually break them down and either score or pass after attracting defenses. now he can barely get away from his man to get the ball to set up the offense. he's just so much damn slower. combine that with zones being allowed (or at least cheating out of man to man) and you've got current day moochie. oh yeah, and his shot also got worse and he's extremely hesitant to shoot now (which goes to the lack of confidence thing). basically, he just regressed in all possible areas and he sucks horribly now. at least bring back the fro mooch so we have something to enjoy about you.
He just needs to be replaced. He's an unfortunate victim of the change in rules. The Rockets didn't make a horrible decision or anything, it's just our luck that's all. One thing is for sure, there is a need for a better backup PG now, and hopefully we'll adress that soon. Mark Jackson would be a nice option. Let him work his way into shape, and hopefully he'll be good to take over all backup PG minutes after that.
The zone has stopped the true point guard role as we know it. Teams may choose to have one, but they will sacrifice real production against any zone. Is Payton a true PG? No. Is Marbury. No. Even Kidd. No. It is not necessary and a true point liike Mooch is obsolete under these times and rules...
IMO, you are a victim of your own personal perception. There is little to nothing that has (on a per minute basis) statistically changed about Moochie over the last 3 seasons. He was the same player during Francis's injury riddled season as he is now. You just didn't have a high a standard when we where winning a grand total of 28 games as you do now that we are #5 in the WC. As I mentioned, at an exteme level of analysis, is his taking career lows in FGA's/m under JVG...less dribbling...more passing. QUOTE]Originally posted by francis 4 prez i'd say it's zones (which hurt our whole backcourt, our guards dominated with isos for a while) plus the extra weight last year plus never getting his quickness back this year even after losing the weight. watch him on the court, he's so much slower than he used to be. from what i remember of his first year + the next, he could change directions and do his herky jerky moves on just about anyone and eventually break them down and either score or pass after attracting defenses. now he can barely get away from his man to get the ball to set up the offense. he's just so much damn slower. combine that with zones being allowed (or at least cheating out of man to man) and you've got current day moochie. oh yeah, and his shot also got worse and he's extremely hesitant to shoot now (which goes to the lack of confidence thing). basically, he just regressed in all possible areas and he sucks horribly now.[/QUOTE] The NBA zone was instituted in the 2001-02 season...Francis's injury riddled season. Again, IMO you are guilty of selection perception. There is little statistical difference in Moochie between that season and the current. Consequently, I doubt if Moochie was ever as fast as you perceived him in his first seasons. I strongly suspect that (in his early seasons) he was playing far fewer minutes against very bad 2nd units. If you doubt there is an adjustment to playing PG for Van Gundy, you don't have to look any further than Francis's fewer FGA's and his not playing 1 on 3 trying to dunk. Under JVG, Moochie or Francis is going to drive and kick out far more often prior seasons. Whatever minute differences there are in Martin are more about JVG than zone or diminshing skills.
That may be true but it eally didn't get going as a major defense until last year. Many teams were burned trying it the first year because they really didn't know how it would pan out and be interpreted...
Playground Syndrome - He (and Steve) were awesome pre-zone when they could take man-to-man guys off the dribble. Mobley can jump shoot his way through a game, Steve can manage. Moochie can't shoot anything past a layup or last second game winner off the glass. Evan
While I agree that Martin's suckitude has not grown to the degree that most on this Board complain about, I think you are minimizing the differences between this year and the previous four with the Rox. He is shooting 35% this season, while he averaged 42% over the previous four (although that is partially offset by better 3 point shooting). He is averaging one assist per 6.9 minutes, versus one assist per 5.9 minutes over the previous four seasons, not an insignificant difference. He is averaging one turnover per 13.3 minutes, versus one turnover per 15.7 minutes in the previous four seasons. More importantly than statistics, however, Martin seems to have greater difficulty than in the past handling the ball against the press (we gave up letting him even attempt to handle the ball against Darrell Armstrong), and his on the ball defense is worse than ever (Lopez made him look like the rookie). Backup pointguard remains this team's greatest personnel need.
Houston trades: SG Cuttino Mobley (16.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 3.1 apg in 40.8 minutes) PG Moochie Norris (2.9 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.2 apg in 15.0 minutes) Houston receives: PG Charlie Ward (9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 27.1 minutes) C Kurt Thomas (11.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 apg in 35.5 minutes) Change in team outlook: +1.6 ppg, +8.6 rpg, and +2.7 apg. New York trades: PG Charlie Ward (9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 27.1 minutes) C Kurt Thomas (11.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 apg in 35.5 minutes) New York receives: SG Cuttino Mobley (16.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 3.1 apg in 17 games) PG Moochie Norris (2.9 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.2 apg in 17 games) Change in team outlook: -1.6 ppg, -8.6 rpg, and -2.7 apg. TRADE ACCEPTED This is the deal to end the Moochie era !
I've actually enjoyed watching Moochie during this win streak. I'm going to be optimistic and say his acceptable play as a backup on this team will continue for the rest of the season.
He was a one trick pony. The one thing he had back then was that nifty little crossover that would catch the defense off guard. After everyone figured out that’s all he could do, he became useless.
I don't feel I'm minimizing at all. From my vantage point, Moochie has always been at best a mid-level backup PG. The minutes he has played and the numbers he has put up are about what I expect for a ~$3.5m a year backup. IMO, many Rox fans were too quick in making Moochie a fan favorite beyond his actual skill level. He was another in a long history of CBA refugees that endeared themselves to Rockets fans. Unlike those in this thread who want to profess a severe drop-off of productivity, I choose to feel that he slightly overachieved early on and is now about what he has always been. His skill level could go relatively unnoticed on a non-playoff team where Francis plays ~ 35+ mpg at PG. IOW, Moochie was never all that good to begin with and now Van Gundy is emphasizing more ball distribution. In all honesty, I don't expect him to even be on the team next season.
You can pick up Jacque Vaughn probably for less than $1m and I think that JV is a much better PG than Moochie in handling and passing the ball.
Didn't Bill refer to him as a true PG last night? Perhaps, I am reading too much into this, but by what standards would accept his play as the true PG?
Ok, so the consensus here seems to be: 1. He always sucked. 2. The zone hurt his game But I don't think that explains it entirely. That wouldn't explain, for example, why he can't run a break anymore. And that was perhaps the ability that everyone preferred of his over Francis. I think that perhaps he's lost confidence because of #2, and it's affected his entire game, even parts that aren't related. I remember his big problem in Seattle was that he became an insomniac. Perhaps he's just kind of fragile, mentally.
I think it is a little of everything you mentioned but mostly the lack of confidence. It's amazing how one's mind can affect a person so much. Once you lose that confidence in your self and begin to doubt yourself, it is very hard to regain it. I played soccer in high school and for a club and was very good and something happened and I began to doubt myself and lost confidence in what I could do and it really affected my game. The simplest things became complex and I played terribly. I don't complain about Moochie as much because I know what it's like to be in that situation. You can clearly see that when he is on the court he doesn't feel comfortable. He seems lost, like he doesn't want to be out there cause he is scared of making a mistake. The past couple of games he has shown some signs of improvement though and does look alittle more comfortable. Instead of getting down on him, maybe if we showed more support for him, he can come out of it. It's not like he is not trying, he has lost alot of weight since last season and he shot has improved as well the past 3 or 4 games.
