Faced with the perils of "socialism" and "wealth redistribution", I thought it was befitting to once again bring up the ultimate irony. I still can't wrap my head around it. I seriously don't understand how you can reconcile the two views if you're a Christian conservative railing against "socialism", of which there are many. Now, I don't want to insult anybody's religious preferences, it just seems to me incredibly hypocritical to embrace views of war and profit when you are worshiping someone who happens to be one of the world's greatest leaders...and a pacifist/socialist to boot. If you could explain it to me, then fine...I just don't see how it's possible, unless you're maintaining a separation of your material life from that of the spiritual, which has to be unhealthy.
Short answer: Separation of Church and State Read the constitution. Our nation wasn't founded on Christianity. Our government should not be dictated by any book or religion. Our people have a right to vote on any side, regardless of what their belief is backed by. Our nation was founded on freedom and any measure going against that is spitting on the graves of those who have found and died for these freedoms. I will agree one can argue that the fundamentals of Christianity is based on socialism (and Judaism on tyranny) but you NEVER find Jesus saying sell everything and give it to Ceasar so he can redistribute the wealth. Our founding fathers and Jesus had enough sense to realize that gov. is corrupt. I find it pretty sickening that you would expect all true Christians to be socialists. Also, if you choose to start quoting scriptures, perhaps you should read AND understand the bible more. Hand picking scriptures to fit your agenda is what leads extremist to strap bombs on their chest and expect a harem of virgins in heaven.
I'm not arguing against the freedom to embrace whatever you see fit, just pointing out the hypocrisy. You are free to reason however you see fit, just as I am free to comment based on that same rule. You can argue separation of religion and state and it is a valid argument (at least on a country-wide basis), just that I'm more interested in the individual. Clearly, you cannot separate your material and spiritual beliefs without being a hypocrite on some level. As for Jesus never saying you should sell everything, well, a certain parable comes to mind. Now, I'm the first to admit that I'm not very strong on theology. However, I have studied the Bible somewhat. Maybe not as much as a staunch Christian, but I really do respect what Jesus and the prophets did. I think it offers us all insight, so I've looked into a couple of verses. And to be honest, just looking through, it would appear that my quotes are not just the extreme few that could be used to justify horrible things (Your God is a vengeful god etc.) but really, excerpts from a common truth. Jesus was an ideal model, someone to live up to. I just find it sad that the same people who worship him try to actively counteract what made him so great.
I'm not christian nor republican but I can easily reconcile this if I were. I could say that the government is not the answer and blindely giving money to the government does more harm than good. You are are better off giving directly.
Going further on giving to charity directly versus government solutions. Giving alms in the Bible rarely, if ever, had to do with paying taxes. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s." Matthew 22:21 They are two separate things.
Religious people who think they know the mind of God can rationalize their way out of any obvious dilemma such as the one posed in this thread.
I'll concede the fact that you can separate socialism as an economic form from your spiritual beliefs if you believe that socialism is not the ultimate way to achieve what is in essence the Christian ideal of sacrifice for others. However, I get the feeling (and correct me if I'm wrong) that a significant amount of Conservative Christians are not even pursuing that line of thought. The arguments I've seen are more of the "I'm not rich, give me my money, I worked hard to earn it, leave me alone, Any Rand says we're the achievers now scat!." kind of thing. I'd be very surprised if a majority would be willing to give half as much money directly as they are forced to do indirectly through taxation...my hunch would be no. I mean, let's be honest, even factoring in the fact that taxation is inherently wasteful, how many people would still fork out the same amount of money/benefits directly as taxation would benefit people indirectly? I could see a significant minority doing it, but otherwise, no. This is the idea I'm rooting at...the cliche, age-old problem. The material selfishness that defines much of capitalism works very well in a rational framework but when you pit it against religion (and it's inherently irrational nature), there's a conflict at work here that goes beyond taxes and Caesars. An example of this in my mind is the concept of unregulated capitalism that was touted by the Right; while they argued that removing cumbersome gouvernment regulations would benefit society, there was that certain air of "please, please, let us go back to 1800s London!" and "we know what's better for you then you do." that characterized the rational self-interest so central in our society...and so antithetical to the tenets of Christianity.
Actually, if you look at the history of taxation and charitable contribution in this country, charities do better when taxes are lower. When taxes are high, it becomes an "I gave at the office" type of situation.
Hmm...I'm trying to look that up. Too tired right now, so it's probably not going to pop up, but that would be an interesting point. Problem is, I doubt the difference between the two amounts to charity>taxes. Ideally, we need a balance between the two and tight gouvernment regulation (in my opinion). I'm not an advocate of full-on socialism, but I think it's a good counter to the "deregulation" people and it does represent a gouvernment system that theoretically would be compatible with Christian views. I'm not necessarily expecting all Conservative Christians to be socialists, I'm just disappointed that more of them are tending to the opposite point of view of unregulated capitalism, which is the least compatible with Christian views.
You certainly make some good points, and I have really enjoyed throwing these ideas out there. I believe in reasonable government regulation to ensure an even playing field (ie insider trading, etc). I simply do not believe that socialism is necessarily compatible with Christianity.
That's something totally different. I don't know how christians justify war unless its to protect innocent people.
everyone is missing the point here.. it is my understanding that the OP was meant to show the hypocrisy of those "conservatives" who happen to be extremely religious and who despite the idea of "spreading the wealth around" and "tax cuts for the poor" which are essentially what Jesus would do.. even though "spreading the wealth around" isn't what's taking place.. What Obama is doing is simply an alternative economy-stimulating strategy that has nothing to do with socialism.. yes, small government is better to an extent, and I, as a Ron Paulite, firmly believe that the government is TOO freaking huge to an unhealthy level. Bush has executed the "tax cuts for rich peeps makes everythign jolly excellent!" strategy to perfection in the past 8 years, look where that got us.. that administration's stupidity along with unwarranted unneeded wars and insane spending on B.S stuff has screwed us over so hard that it's virtually impossible to get back to a healthy economical level without making radical moves and having the government set everything straight.. hadn't it been for that stupidity, we would've never gotten into this position.. now, what pisses me off the most is those ignorant wingnuts who scream foul on every damn move Obama makes for the economy. yes, I don't support such government-enlarging moves in normal times.. I support Ron Paul's "leave it like it is, it'll fix itself" philosophy.. but we're not in "normal times", we're in what I like to call "$h!t times", and Ron Paul's ideas wouldn't work right now, because the economy is so screwed it can't fix itself.. think of it like the human body: you catch a cold, you take some Vitamin C and boom, your immune system fights the cold and you go back to being stronger than you were before.. now, lf you catch a virus, and you don't take anything, but rather you smoke 2 packs of cigarettes and you just don't pay attention to it, you're gonna get worse.. multiply that x 1000, you're almost dying.. you get to a point where your immune system cannot do anything, and you're essentially screwed unless you take some anti-biotics, which, by the way, are unhealthy to an extent, but they will rid you of this illness, and you hope that you'll get back to normal and promise yourself never to ignore your symptoms again and take better care of your body so that next time you catch a small cold, your immune system will shrug it off.. it's simple people, you just need to think..
Jesus is a radical. But not a socialist radical. I lean left, but I don't think Jesus saw government as the solution. Jesus and the early Church were pretty critical of the "world" - meaning, the system...and authorities in general. If your faith is in any -ism, then I think you're probably missing the mark somewhere with respect to Jesus. That doesn't mean you should be hordeing wealth and doing anything less than helping bring people up...no matter the government policy. Also...the render to Caesar line....remember this line is delivered to first century Jews. Not to a group of Enlightenment Thinkers. Like many believers of various faiths, they see God in EVERYTHING. This would be particularly so of Judaism. And Jesus says: "render to Caesar what is Caesar's...render to God what is God's." To Jesus...and to these men...EVERYTHING BELONGS TO GOD, ultimately. And Caesar is a pain in the ass. He's the emperor of their occupier...representing a culture that, to these men, would be an abomination. This isn't a pat on the back for the Internal Revenue Service. This isn't a, "keep in line...don't make waves" sort of statement. Jesus very rarely made statements like that. He's a flat out radical. And he's challenging these people daring them to suggest that there is anything they have that isn't merely on loan from God....that could possibly come from this Caesar. We've watered that text down so much (as we have with so much of the NT), but I suppose that's what happens when "christianity" becomes merely cultural. The Jesus it points to is about as counter-culture as it gets. So much imagery of Jesus from the early-Church is set up COMPLETELY to counter the empire, and Caesar in particular. Having said that, the Bible points to God's chosen economy for the Jews in the Old Testament. Complete with regularly scheduled debt forgiveness (Jubilee). This economy was very forgiving and completely anti-capitalist. It did not allow for or support the notion of "getting ahead." It was more concerned with making sure no one fell behind. If that is the model for a perfect econonmy, then socialism it is. The problem is...most of us wouldn't be comfortable with that....God was King. When the Jews demanded their own real king...like their neighbors...God told them they'd regret it. That their real king would only be concerned with his own power...that he'd take their daughters to be his concubines...and their sons to be his slaves and foot soldiers in pursuit of his own wealth and power. And, of course, He was right. So the problem with socialism, as with any -ism, isn't the idea...it's the people behind the implementation...the people behind the power. Evil isn't external...it's internal. Also..finish the story on the rich man and the camel in the eye of the needle...he's asked, "well then who can know the Kingdom of God (by the way...the Kingdom of God isn't heaven in the way you learned in Sunday School...we can talk about that later, though! ) Jesus responds, "With God, anything is possible." If you're a Christian and you're pointing fingers at the rich (as I do too often) or judging those who judge (as I very often do) then you're forgetting that last line. Redemption is possible...and it rarely finds its genesis in finger pointing and judgment.
It has always been an amusing dichotomy in what the actual teachings of Jesus were and what the majority of Christians now purport as their values. In either case, it is an example of selective biblical memory.
ugh...that picture is painful. i agree with your point. particularly true of the Church in the U.S. today. though not all-inclusive, I'll say.
Fascinating topic. I've been wondering about this kind of thing for a while now. It leads me to believe we don't know what is perfect government, but clearly, capitalism is further from it than communism. Just a theory and I was wondering what everyone thought of this. One conclusion I came to is that, regardless of the rules, you are free to do much more than you think. Pay the government what it asks, and re-elect later. If the system of appointing government is fair and effective, then you should be able to change what you don't like when the time comes. However, at the same time, you should be doing what you can to help the rest of the world. We become very bitter when paying what we perceive to be high taxes. But this bitterness shouldn't stop us from being charitable. It should give you motive to (a) exercise your right to elect the right leader and (b) inspire you to work harder to be able to help people. Giving charity is something you should fight for. As a human, you have to want to help people who are unfortunate. It's in our nature and we shouldn't let bitterness taint that trait.
