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What should we do with Giles?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by cangrejero51, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

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    Appel Whip is 1.26. That is not bad, but his ERA is a little deceiving. However this is looking like a terrible trade.

    Giles whip was 1.2 last year which is a quite high for some one with 1.8 ERA. Also its kind bad that he walked 25 guys.
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    What's deceiving is even discussing a player, in a positive/negative light, who hasn't even thrown a single MLB pitch yet.
     
  3. RasaqBoi

    RasaqBoi Member

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    Options 3 and 4.

    Giles needs to be demoted and put in bad or big run lead situations. Mentally he is ****ed right now.
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    That's all fine and well. But he's affecting the season at this point. If he has crap to work through, let him work through it while not playing for a team with real expectations. Let him work through it in the minors and then come back. I'm not suggesting they're gonna release the guy.
     
  5. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    And what if he doesn't have any complicated mental or physical things to work through? If he goes to the minors and dominates inferior competition, what will that really prove? At the same time, if they just stash him and use him in low pressure situations now, what will that really accomplish other than taxing the rest of the bullpen arms?

    Its a bad stretch, no doubt. He has to be better, no doubt... but is it really bad enough that its impossible for himself to pitch his way out of it?

    Of course this is a team with real expectations... which happens to have at least 2 to 3 other pressing issues along side with him that are all contributing to what the record is. This just gets magnified because he's the new guy, he's not matching his previous known production, and they gave up valuable resources for him.
     
  6. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    What should we do with Giles?

    <tt>We should buy him a pony.
    </tt>
     
  7. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    Of course it's magnified because of that. But if every time Gregerson entered the game, he gave up a run or more, I'd be saying the same thing. You can't have that guy coming in and killing games for you.

    It's not about PROVING anything. It's about seeing if he can get it worked out. He got his ass handed to him in the spring by guys who aren't major leaguers now...and he's getting his ass handed to him in the regular season now by guys who are. But in the meantime, he's costing the Astros games. I'd rather he attempt to work through that crap somewhere else than here, because the Astros simply don't have margin for that error right now.
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Using this logic, the Astros would also have to do something about the offense, defense and every starting pitcher not named Keuchel.
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Agreed.... And by that logic, they also don't have margin for trotting out starting pitchers who routinely give up runs in the first 2 innings, they don't have margin for starting CF, DH, and C that aren't hitting .200, and they don't have a margin for LMJ continuing to suffer from an injury that has no distinct timetable for return (day to day, those things are adding up to more L's than the Giles appearances)

    Giles lost the game yesterday.... and lost the 2nd game of the KC series. He did actually have some holds in between. Again, his mistakes are currently magnified/under the microscope (thread worthy)... And he's got to be better...but odds are, he works it out/improves without needing a demotion or being benched.

    To be honest, I really wish he was the biggest problem with the Astros right now... And that's entirely where I'm coming from with him. He has been a dissapointment... Moreso because the stuff seems to be there, but he has very little consistency from game to game.
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Me? I blame Feldman.

    4.1 Innings
    8 hits
    4 BB
    5 Runs
     
  11. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

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    So far this division is living up to my mediocre expectations, so that gives the Astros the option to keep playing the long game here in the early going. Even with our garbage start, we are a mere 4 games out of first. The important thing at this point is still to try and figure out who (and in what roles) will help us for the majority of the year.

    Giles has been terrible, no arguing that, but the stuff still seems to be there. Maybe give him a little more rest, and work him into some lower leverage situations. Demoting him outright, or mothballing him into cleanup duty would just be a stupid panic move.
     
  12. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    And you won't win many games making 3 errors.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. Major

    Major Member

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    So unless you can fix every problem, you shouldn't do anything? :confused:

    The Astros don't necessarily have other SP or offensive options out there. They can bring up RPs fairly easily if they want to send Giles down to the minors for a week or two.
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    That's the logic that gave David Carr an extension.
     
  15. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    You should fix as much as you can *and* not limit yourself to Giles.

    Add Gomez, Gattis, Castro and Marisnick to the list of underachievers. These players should be platooned or benched until they can proof to be everyday players again.
     
  16. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    I disagree. There are no possible elite 8th-9th inning guys (what Giles was expected to be) that aren't already on this roster. You move Harris to that role, and everybody else moves up a notch. It will eventually cause a strain.

    Meanwhile, they could move Devenski to the starting rotation to off-set the regression of McHugh, Feldman, Fiers and the impending implosion of Fister. They could consider benching Gomez, moving Springer or Rasmus to CF, and seeing if anybody else can both handle LF and give them more production in the lineup (Tucker, Bregman). We've talked about how they could offset Castro.

    Again, these are all day to day things that are affecting the ball club equally, if not Moreso. The Giles issue is a hot-button/thread-worthy topic that is magnified. I'm also less pessimistic that he's a failure that can't get back to where he was just 6 months ago.
     
  17. Major

    Major Member

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    Giles isn't playing the role of an 8th or 9th inning guy anyway as-is. They've already had to move everyone else up a spot. You're talking about playing him in low leverage situations - they have plenty of guys in the minors that can fill that role.

    They already look like they are slowly increasing Devenski's role. They could certainly play around with Gomez, but they can't send him to the minors, so if he's going to work his way out of it, it has to be on the MLB roster. Same with Castro, though they are working on getting Gattis into the lineup as Catcher there too.

    Of course he can get back to who he was - the question is what is the best way to get there. Is it to play him in low-leverage situations whenever the opportunity arises? Or is it to send him down, let him be a closer at AAA for a week or two, etc? I don't know what the "best" answer is, but they did some of the former and it hasn't seemed to help in a limited sample size. I don't see why the latter is not a reasonable option.
     
  18. Major

    Major Member

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    Marisnick was already sent down. They are trying to move Gattis to catcher to some extent, which addresses both of those guys. Gomez is a conundrum.
     
  19. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Having holds in 4 out of their 6 wins is something... Albeit while his K's still remain good, his WHIP is not. Limiting the HR's is one thing... Limiting the base traffic is the next. He has to be better.

    But you take him out of that role, and it does move everybody else up (including Fields, who has shown even worse ability than Giles thus far, without the extended track record, or age, to suggest he can get better)

    Devenski starting has to be the next major move considered if 3 out of the 5 guys in the rotation continue to struggle through the next time through. Gomez is looking worse with each and every AB. Now that Marisnick is down, it does limit their daily CF options (although moving Rasmus and Springer is still a possibility). You can add DH to their needs as well... Gattis/Tucker haven't really taken the position by storm, and with Gattis possibly catching, Tucker needs to start producing more. There's also the White regression.

    Prior to yesterday, Giles was seemingly rounding into form with 3 consecutive scoreless outings... Again, sample size stuff really effects things more here due to the limited relief pitching outings, along with the limited save opportunities in general. WHIP is a concern... HR's were a concern... And now I'd guess his mental fortitude is a concern based on his comments last night. The latter can be resolved more so with a successful 1-2-3 high leverage situation vs. mop-up time or AAA time. I don't think it's reached that sort of depth (yet).
     
  20. Hank McDowell

    Hank McDowell Member

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    Trey Rose from dynastydigest wrote a good article about the Giles situation.

    http://http://dynastydigest.sportsblog.com/posts/16631358/what-is-wrong-with-houston-astros--pitcher--ken-giles-.html

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH HOUSTON ASTROS' PITCHER, KEN GILES?

    by Trey Rose

    Ken Giles has struggled out of the Astros' bullpen this year, but how can he fix what is wrong?

    The Houston Astros acquired young flamethrower, Ken Giles, from the Philadelphia Phillies this offseason. The Astros paid a king's ransom for Giles considering they gave up top prospect, Vincent Velazquez, former #1 overall pick, Mark Appel, Brett Oberholtzer, and Thomas Eshelman. Giles' cost was so high because of his young age, success, and his team control for the next 4 years. Unfortunately for the Astros, this trade hasn't quite worked out as people expected. Giles continues to struggle, Velazquez continues to shine, and Mark Appel seems to be back on track.

    Following the trade, the Astros were expected to name Giles the opening day closer over the previous closer, Luke Gregerson. Well, the unexpected happened during spring training. Giles struggled to get people out and the Astros decided to name Gregerson the opening closer for 2016. Many Astros' fans believed this was going to be temporary, considering the Astros paid so much for 25 year old closer, but this situation doesn't seem to be temporary anymore. Through 8.2 innings pitched in 2016, Giles has a 8.31 ERA, 2 losses, 13 hits given up, 3 walks, and 12 strikeouts. The start of the season is not Giles-esque considering in his first two seasons with the Phillies; he threw 115.2 innings, with a 1.56 ERA, 84 hits given up, 151 strikeouts, 36 walks, and 16 saves. So that brings up the question every Astros fan and fantasy baseball owner is asking, what is wrong with Ken Giles?

    There are multiple theories behind the struggles of Ken Giles. The first theory is that he is mentally shaken since losing the closers job. Giles is a natural closer and he has been in a closer role for the last year, but he lost that role after being traded. He has clearly been pressing, which has led to a lot of struggles, lost confidence, and negative results. When Giles was traded, many people thought he was one of the best, up and coming, closers in Major League Baseball, so it is understandable that he started to press, as he wanted to succeed for his new team. If you watch Astros games, you can tell he is struggling to keep his composure on the mound and he looks lost out there. In fact, it looks as if Houston's manager, A.J. Hinch, is calling Giles' pitches, which shows that the Astros coaching staff is trying to take away as much pressure as possible on Giles. The mentality of a closer is fragile and very important to their success, so it is necessary that Giles figures out how to rebound from this tough start in 2016.

    The second theory of why Ken Giles is struggling is because he isn't using his repertoire of pitches effectively. If you look at his statistics, he is giving up 39.3% line drives this year, compared to 21.9% in 2015 and 14.8% in 2014. This has also affected his ground ball rate as it has decreased to 32.1% in 2016, compared to 44.8% in 2015 and 44.3% in 2014. A lot of these statistics can be explained by his lack of faith in his fastball. Giles is known for his high velocity fastball, hence his nickname, hundred miles Giles, but he isn't throwing it much this year. He is throwing his fastball 50.8% of the time and his slider 49.2% of the time in 2016. Over the past 2 years, Giles averaged about 60.5% fastballs and 39.5% sliders. His average velocity is roughly the same as last year, but he isn't topping out near 100 MPH like we are used to. This could be one of the reasons Giles is losing faith in his heater. His biggest problem with his fastball is its lack of movement. Since the start of 2016, his fastball looks to be as straight as an arrow. Perhaps Giles should focus on throwing more 2-seam fastballs, to hopefully induce more ground balls. This could be a simple mechanical fix, but it could take time for Giles to realize the mechanical cause of his struggles.

    Something needs to be done in order to help this young pitcher get back on track. Does he need some time in the minors? Does he need to throw in less pressure situations? That is not up to me. From the Astros point of view, how can you demote a guy with so much talent after acquiring him for so much talent? No one is questioning Giles' potential, but maybe he just needs to regain his focus. It might take a week or two in the minors to do this, but Giles' success out of the bullpen is key for the Astros to compete in 2016. I have no doubt in my mind that Giles will be one of the top closers in baseball one day, but it's time to focus on the present, and the present is not good.
     

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