What part of the history of your people/country are you most Ashamed/proud of?

Good idea for a thread. Perhaps too many people are Americans, so it'll get redundent -- but then maybe it won't. I'm a dual-citizen, so I'll do entries for both. There are so many things to put in all categories (especially the shames), but I'm going to try to keep it to 1 each

American
Proud: The Civil Rights movement. As bad as our reputation and our history is on race relations, I think our society has made an astounding shift. Ironically, we now seem to do a better job of avoiding prejudice than other countries with a better reputation (France being one I get to see most distinctly).

Ashamed: Imperialism, which is a very broad net to throw. But from the massacres we committed in Indonesia and the gunboat diplomacy in China, to the Texas War for Independence and the Mexican-American War, to the enforced oil monopolies in Mexico and military support for right-wing dictators and mafiosos in the Caribbean all the way up to our current wars, there are so many things that really fall under one umbrella. And, unlike slavery, Jim Crow and the genocide of the Native Americans, it's a sin that we do not subject ourselves to constant self-fragellation for. These other things we now concede are wrong and are forever trying to make amends for (well, ok, not so much the Indian genocide thing), but we can't even admit that we've ever treated a foreign country unjustly. It hardly gets touched on in history class.


French
Proud: The French Revolution. While it convulsed the country for most of 2 centuries following 1789, it started the end of the reign of monarchs in almost all the world and established a new paradigm of governance. The US' revolution predates it, but France's legitimized democracy as a form of government.

Ashamed: I have to put two on this one.
A: Imperialism again, but for a different reason. Since France was an imperial power in an earlier stage of history, this is mostly colonialism. And we did a terrible, terrible job of it and France's former colonies still today feel the sting of having incompetent invaders. Whereas English colonies flourished into great nations -- the US, Canada, Australia, India, even South Africa -- it seems like most former French colonies sit at the bottom of the world's list of prosperity and peace: Haiti, Algeria, Cameroon, Cote D'Ivoire, Indochine, etc. Our biggest success was Quebec, which I suspect is more the result of the English influence.

B: World War I. We managed to pin it on the Germans in the end, but the whole thing was an embarrassment from beginning to end. First, we already had their asses handed to us by the Germans a couple of decades back, but we were spoiling for more. We made up excuses to fight. Once we got our fight, it was only by a miracle (on the Marne) that we weren't defeated before the year was over. We then went on to kill and die by the millions before being bailed out by the Americans. By the end of the ordeal, we had units up and down the front deserting. And, when we somehow came up victors, we learned nothing from the experience, continued to try to keep Germany down, and did not reform a military that obviously could not hang with the neighbors'. I am glad that after WWII, we realized that in a world with the US and the USSR, our fight with the Germans was irrelevant and counterproductive anyway. But, our vainglory and stubbornness in the early 20th century was a low point for the country.

 

Vichy?

 

JuanValdez,

Texas War for Independence?

I thought they were pretty nice to let Santa Ana return with his head on his shoulders.

 

There's too much to be proud of and ashamed of to list in a thread like this.

 

I wouldn't know where to start either.

 

JV, the Texas War for Independence wasn't an act of US imperialism. The US had an abiding interest in an independent Texas. They took full advantage of that independence, once Washington's political winds blew in favor of offering Texas the choice of joining the US, on terms making it clear that it was the desire of an independent Texas (although not all Texans), to expand the territory of the United States, and to undermine Mexico's ability to hold on to her northern territories. Certainly, the Mexican War was an act of imperialism by the US, although not as widely supported in the country to the extent many believe.

During the 10 years of Texas independence, one could make a good argument for the "imperial, expansionist ambitions" of the Republic of Texas, but the fact is that the US took little effective action to promote Texas independence in the first place. Washington was divided over the "Texas Question" because Texas would have been a slave state, and non-slave states didn't want to add more. There were other reasons as well, although it can't be denied that there was much support for the idea.

The fact that Great Britain and France had recognized Texas played it's part. The US wasn't crazy about having a Texas Republic developing close ties to France and Britain, the two Great Powers of Europe.


More on topic... I'll have to think about it.



Keep D&D Civil!!

 

Ashamed:

Nazis

Proud:

Bach
Mozart
Beethoven
Gutenberg
Luther
Goethe
etc.

 

Which side does Richard Wagner fit into?

 

SJC;

I was hoping you would add Dirk Nowitzki to your Ashamed list.

 

And you left The Scorpions off the "proud" list?

 

Proud: The melting pot. Yes America is majority white, but the country was founded on immigration, and became great through immigration (even some immigration that we are not so proud of, like slavery and the Chinese railroad workers). Our willingness to fight for the cause of others is probably second.

Ashamed: Liberals. J/K I would say the genocide of the indians would be #1 on this list. Slavery is pretty high up their too.

 

Cohen, Deckard: I'm not going to argue the merits of my opinion, but I would point out that your reaction to my throwing Texas Independence in there I had anticipated by pointing out that we do not criticize ourselves or even acknowledge that a wrong has been committed. That's why it is number one on my list.

basso, I don't worry much about Vichy, though the broader question of anti-semitism in France and Europe generally is unsettling. But, Vichy was a country of short duration (the Germans abolished it long before the tide of the war turned), was not much better or worse than the alternative, and was not located in the part of France I'm from. I am ashamed that anti-semitism is still an issue in Europe today. Perhaps because of my relationship with France, though, I'm probably more ashamed of failures in merit than I am in failures of morals. Either way, the damage they've done to their colonies ranks high on both scales, and gets the nod.

I'd like to see what ya'll would put on the list. I put my neck out and let everyone second-guess what I should be ashamed of. So, lets see your list.

 

I'm not sure if it means American or my old country ancestors.

Proud: I guess I could say standing up to the British and fighting them for several of them both U.S. and old countries.

Chivalry

Dueling history

Declarations of Independence, U.S, Constitution are great documents.

Rock & Roll

Advances in technology

Space program

Rural electrification

Fighting against the Nazis, and Japanese in WWII

Being the country lucky enough to host the great state of Texas.

Good country music.(not pop country)

Jazz

The Hollywood greats, and quality films

A lot of Authors from both the new world and the world ancestors

Founding fathers of the U.S. who were willing to risk everything for their principles.

Civil Rights struggle.

The Initial labor struggle and labor unions

Ashamed: Slavery would be on the list, genocide vs. the Indians, Starting a war in Iraq, having a congress that would legislate freedom fries.

Jim Crow Laws

Imperialism

The age of Robber Barons, and monopolies along with labor laws.

A culture of consumerism

McCarthyism

The horrible Hollywood and meaningless, mediocrity

MTV

 

I think the Jazz should be on your ashamed, not proud list. This is a basketball site afterall...

You don't want to lose all credibility here, do you?

 

lol. Well actually there is some that should be on the Ashamed list for sure. It could be a double listing.

thanks to you, I checked my list again and saw that I did incorrectly assign labor struggle and initial labor union movement on the wrong list.

I have fixed that now.

 

I must be in playoff mode...because i completely missed the labour movement being on the wrong list. Your praise for the Jazz, however, is out of character...

The Jazz, i'm happy to note, are not in playoff mode ....and won't be...for a long, long time.

 

I was so out of it, I didn't get the reference. That just shows how little THE jazz are on my mind.

Your are right I should be banned from the boards for life if I ever put a pride in THE jazz on any list.

I usually take a joke well, but even the insinuation of me liking THE Jazz still stings.

 

Ashamed?

Drunks

Proud?

cops and firefighters

What am I?