With all the talk about Mobley shooting too much, never passing, dribbling too much, black hole, blah blah blah, it got me thinking about the shooting guard position in general, and assists in particular. You'll have to forgive me because I do not know the minutae of details in the NBA rulebook, but if anyone knows the exact rule for when a made shot both does and does not generate an assist for another player, I would really like to know. The reason I ask has to do with Cat. I don't particularly mind the 'shooting guard' taking a lot of shots during a game. What bothers me is this (I am about to show my age a bit): one of my favorite players ever at the shooting guard spot was Rolando Blackman. He was an all-star 2 for the Mavs in the 80's, and he was as quick and dead-eye with a shot as you will ever see. But I do not think I *ever* saw him dribble around until the were 4 seconds left on the shot clock and then jack up a shot with multiple defenders in his face. No, Ro Blackman was one of the best players ever at moving *without* the ball, and he could zip around 3 screens, receive a pass and shoot a perfect shot all in one motion. It was a beautiful thing. Now I know RudyT and Dick Motta are examples of very different coaching styles, but I do think Mobley could play that same kind of game, and it seems like that is the sort of thing Rudy is aiming for with his 'movement' offense. A bucket is a bucket, I know. However, it just makes sense that if your teammates are involved in the offense more, even if it is just to make a pass that results in an assist, rather than just standing back and watching Mobley (and SF) 'create' for themselves, the team can't help but be better. Plus, you start making it that much harder for the opposing defense to stop what you are trying to do. I would be interested to know how many of Mobley's made shots also generated an assist for a teammate. I don't think anyone gets an assist when he just dribbles for several seconds and then shoots, but I could be wrong. But I think that stat - something like the 'ratio of assists per made shot by Mobley' would be a very good barometer of where this team is. The higher that number climbs, the better this team becomes. So rather than worrying about how many assists he gets, consider how many assists his teammates get whe he makes a shot. Any of you number-crunchin slide-rule jockeys out there able to come up with some stats for this? ciao
I don't think there is an exact definition of an "assist". It's more of a judgement call made by the official score keeper. Generally, if you pass it to somebody and they make a basket in a timely manner without dribbling the ball, then it's an assist. If you pass it to somebody and they immediately make a jumper, it's an assist, but if you pass it to somebody and they hold the ball for a few seconds before shooting it, it's not an assist. Also, if you pass it to somebody, they get fouled, and make both foul shots, I think it counts as an assist, though someone will have to check that one out for me...
Im almost positive its not. I wish it were though. Kinda penalizes the passer for making a good play by not giving him an assist. BTW Nero, excellent post.
no matter how you slice it, this team does not get many assists. even our transition game doesn't get many. Even when Mobley has come around picks, he is so fast that he can use those passes to slash to the basket...which is actually a better play that the Blackman shot....more of a Euro thing to use picks to open driving lanes. Mobley has mention that the camp offense was getting him a step on his defender, rather than make him create the step. Such a pass to Mobley and immediate drive will not register as an assist, but that is certainly something we've seen so far. We've also seen more catch and shoot shots for Cat, as well. But we always saw those for other players, it's just more new for Cat. Mobley is also getting a pass and doing the Peja quick 1-2 dribbles and shoot. He's getting good at it, especially around the FT line. This movement offense that we've seen only in batches will get him more and more open and make his drives better. It does not look like it is trying to get Mobley more assists. If he gets the pass, he's often supposed to slash, shoot or go ahead and keep swinging it. That said, there is no reason Mobley can't get better at the slash and kick/dish. That's what I want. Much of everything else re: assist is likely beyond his ability, so why put him in those situations.
Didn't he do that slash-kickout to SF the other night against Tor? Or was it the other way around? Either way, I almost fell out of my chair it was such an unexpectedly pretty sight.
Mobley is not the issue with the team. Good example with Ro. The issue starts and stops with Francis, he has the ball in his hand the entire game and never passes. Mobley would be great off the bench contributing 15-17 points in 25+ min "How many assists his teammates get.... Not that many. a) He dribbles until he has a shot b) The team is only averaging 13 assists/ gm c) There is no sign of a fastbreak or transition game.
Or... he could start and be arguably the second best SG in the west after Kobe. But maybe Rudy should reduce his minutes so that Tito Maddox or Bob Cousy's corpse could come in and throw two handed chest passes to open teammates.
That's extremely funny.. hehehe but what makes it even funnier is the thought of what Cousy's reaction would be to being referred to as a 'corpse', seeing as he is still alive in Massachusetts.. Maybe we COULD get him to come in and teach the young pups a few tricks ..
You are quite the character. Or he could: 1) Leave both Mobley & Francis in for 40 minutes per game 2) Play the same me me me... dribble dribble shoot... 3) Not pass the ball 4) Have the same 5.25 shot to assist ratio 5) Let the rest of the team just stand around like they have been Damn Mav, you are right!! Thanks for helping me see the light!!!! Things are great as they are!
You want assists? Griffin, Hawkins, Ming, Norris, Collier, Nachbar, and Thomas are shooting 30% collectively. During the Denver game, Moochie missed two straight open jumpers off passes from Steve. Could field goal percentage somehow be related to assists? NAH! Couldn't be!
Let me get this straight TheHorns...you want to: 1. give Mobley 25 minutes of dribble dribble shoot 2. give Moochie 35 minutes of little dribbler 3. Make Francis the SG so we have a prototype reason why he dominates the ball. 4. Allow Francis to thus dominate the ball like a young Jordan 5. Have the same 5.25 shot to assist ratio 6. Let the rest of the team just stand around or do we 1. Bench Moochie and Tito 2. Keep teaching Francis and Mobley to adjust and surround them with better players...starting with a front court FOR ONCE. <b>Damn mav, you are right. Moochie/Tito as Francis's PGs would suck. Things are great as they are.</b>
Mav, Mobley is not the best 2 on his own damn team!!! Saying that Mobley is the 2nd best SG in the West is like comparing the second best big man in the East to those in the West. The West is not stocked with 2's as the east is, but tell me which of these you would NOT take over Mobley: Iverson Carter Stojakovic Finley McGrady Rose Sczerbiak Stackhouse Ray Allen
Wouldnt it be fair to say that one of the reasons that %s are so low is because of the times that they do pass, they are getting the ball in bad position or that their passes come so infrequently that they cant get into a rythm?
I don't understand why so many Rockets fans don't appreciate how good Mobley is. He is by far the teams second best offensive player and the only guy besides steve that can create off the dribble, an All Star caliber SG, and is the best defensive guard on the team. The alternative to him is more Moochie or more Tito. I don't care whether you see the light or think things are great as they are, but that alternative sucks ass IMO.
well mavs... first thing. theHorns is not a Rox fan..he's a troll secondly..if you consider Hawk the backup 2 as many here do.. Mobley is no longer the best defensive guard on the team. have we stopped to consider that the rest of the team is not used to getting passes, therefore when they do get them..it surprises them and they arent ready to do anything with the ball?
Better than having both him & Francis fighting to do it for 40 + min per game Don't get me started on one of Rudy's other idiotic signings. But I will say, I think Rudy would have better success telling Moochie to pass than he has had trying to get Francis to understand what his roll is or should be. Face it Francis is not a PG. He would no longer bring the ball up court, he would no longer massage the ball, and he would become a slasher and run off pics... ooops nevermind, I was thinking we had an NBA coach that knew the purpose of a pick HUGE ASSUMPTION, EVEN BIGGER MISTAKE!! Sounds like we have some players that need some coaching.. huh? I thought that Rudy, CD & Les have mentioned that this is the team that will lead us to championships. Are you saying that there is still some rebuilding to be done? Hmmm... In Rudy We Trust??? No draft picks this year. So 2 more years of this? There better be a trade or a player to come here for the exception in the offseason or the pain will continue!
A case can be made for taking Cat at Shooting guard over all of the following: Iverson - disruptive influence, declining player, body is breaking down. Oh,, and Cuttino apparently attends practice as far as I know. Carter- injuries may have already ruined his career, anyway he is a small forward IMO. Peja - A Small forward, better spot up shooter but that's it. Finley- It has been discussed many times on this board how much better Cat is than Finlye. They have similar #'s and CAT ABSOLUTELY F-ING DESTROYS FINLEY HEAD TO HEAD whenever they play Dallas. This is a no brainer. Rose- benched in Indy for Ron Artest, so good the Bulls want to get rid of him, More of a forward anyway. Szcerbiak- let's see,, one dimensional jumpshooter who his teammates dislike who wants a max deal with inferior numbers. BTW,, he is labeled as selfish too, I don't think so. StackHouse- Another Small forward type malcontent. I don't see him as clearly better than Cat, and I think if you offered your choice of Stack or Cat to NBA Gms, 20 out of 29 would pick Cat. So, Allen, Bryant, McGrady (And Paul Pierce even though you didn't mention him ) are a cut above, Cat is in the sub-elite tier, not clearly worse or better than the rest. Where do Moochie and TIto rank?
TheHorns, For someone who thinks Peja is the Kings SG, you sure think you know a lot about basketball. Let's go through the checklist. <blockQUOTE><hr>Originally posted by TheHorns Better than having both him & Francis fighting to do it for 40 + min per game<hr></blockQUOTE> You are the only person on the BBS who I've ever seen say that Francis and Mobley fight with each other. pure exaggeration. <blockQUOTE><hr>Don't get me started on one of Rudy's other idiotic signings. But I will say, I think Rudy would have better success telling Moochie to pass <hr></blockQUOTE> So you are saying one of your hated players will do better than Mobley, because Rudy could teach him. Right? OK, let's remember that statement by you to use later, shall we. <blockQUOTE><hr>He would no longer bring the ball up court, he would no longer massage the ball, and he would become a slasher and run off pics...<hr></blockQUOTE> Would you use athletic leapers like Kobe, McGrady, Jordan as a Reggie type slasher to run off pic, or would you have used him to dominate the ball and learn to pick his moments. Remember, Jordan and Harper combines for 6.5 assists in 1996. Remember, you have to still teach Moochie to run such an offense, so that you aren't always relying on Francis jumpers like he's Reggie or sumpin. <blockQUOTE><hr>ooops nevermind, I was thinking we had an NBA coach that knew the purpose of a pick HUGE ASSUMPTION, EVEN BIGGER MISTAKE!! <hr></blockQUOTE>Now we are back to your claim that he could teach Moochie to run an offense. You can't have it both ways. <blockQUOTE><hr>Sounds like we have some players that need some coaching.. huh?<hr></blockQUOTE>That's why you don't bench them for marginal backups who need coaching. You'd need to teach worse shooters more magnificent picking offenses to get equivalent production. <blockQUOTE><hr>I thought that Rudy, CD & Les have mentioned that this is the team that will lead us to championships. Are you saying that there is still some rebuilding to be done?<hr></blockQUOTE> No, just teaching like you have said. You want to teach the reserves, and you want Francis to face 6'6 shooting guards which will limit his offensive mismatches. I want to merely teach Francis to pick his spots, use the PnR better, and then rely on teaching everyone a 5-man game that does not require a point guard to set up everything. Those offenses do exist, and you are stuck in a paradigm where PGs must set-up everything. ummmm, since when has Phil's Triangle ever gone without a Shooting Guard dominating the ball without much help from the PG except to stand on the weakside. notice Ron Harper was a converted SG, btw.
Make up your mind! You will call Pierce a 2, and call Stackhouse & Peja a 3????? Of all the ones I considered, Pierce played 3 more than any. Carter for Mobley in a straight up trade? -you would be lying if you said Cat Stackhouse for Mobley in a straight up trade? -you would be lying if you said Cat Iverson for Mobley in a straight up trade? -you would be lying if you said Cat Finley for Mobley in a straight up trade? -good debate, Finley plays more D and more complete Sczerbiak for Mobley in a straight up trade? -depends on what you like. 45.5% vs. 39.5% 3 pt% 51% vs 44% fg% Call that one how you wish. Peja for Mobley in a straight up trade? -good debate, very similar numbers, much more size, I think that Peja would get the nod
My point exactly! Thanks HeyP You are very right! TO STAND ON THE WEAKSIDE, not to take 20 shots per game. The question you should also ask is: "ummmm, since when has Phil's Triangle ever gone with 2 guards combining for 40 shots per game?"
