Clutchfans has over 25000 members and many more lurkers and im sure they are wondering the same thing, What does "initiating the offense" really mean?? I mean, i know it means starting the offense, so does this mean the player who throws the first pass There have been numerous threads about who "initiates the offense." Last year it was supposably TMAC initiating the offense (hence rafers worthlessness) but all i saw was him pick and rolling with Yao. People say that he is the "initiator" but IMO he is just the main creator. So does "initiating the offense" just mean primary creator? If so then Yao often initiates the offense because when he is doubled down low he creates for others when he kicks the ball out. This leads to my next point - Other people are actually saying Rafer "initiates the offense" better than either MJ or SF3. But then in the next sentence, they say that MJ and SF3 create better opportunities for the team with their driving and dishing abilities. It confuses me Whats the difference So in short i was just wondering what does it exactly mean because IMO people just use it as sort of a "cliche" to prove a point however it seems as nothing more than just basketball lingo. I'm confused and I am sure a lot of other people are. Maybe i am wrong but i just dont see what it means. Everyone has a position in the offense. IMO no one "initiates" it, instead it is the cohesion of 5 guys on the court all playing their part in it. Whats your interpretation of initiating with offense? As you can see i am most definantly confused about it!
Well for me it is just bringing the ball up, calling the play, waiting for the play to unfold and then do what the play asks you to do (e.g. pass to the cutter at the right time, dribble of a pick etc.) with the right timing. Rafer is pretty good in that as he is quick, handles the ball pretty well, is a good passer and is very smart (as in always knowing what he and everybody else has to do). SF is dribbling to long and aint as quick in making decisions, MJ is a little bit to selfish and seems to be less smart and "safe".
Then how can people say that rafer initiates the offense. Yes he dribbles the ball up and calls the play, but, and like all point guards do, he doesnt just stand there and wait for the right pass to give or the right pick to dribble off. For example he will pass the ball to the wing. The wing waits for Yao to get position, and passes him the ball. So the WING has initiated the play because he has waited for Yao and he has thrown the pass. And when you say "do what the play asks of you" everyone has a role in the play whether it be as simple as spread to the corner and stand or as complicated as shaking your defender and running off 3 screens. So according to what you said, the "initiator" of teams who run their offense through a big guy like us, is the player who throws the ball into the post?? Or is it the Big guy who throws the ball out of the post because he has waited for the play to unfold and he has thrown the right pass?? This further proves my point that no one really "initiates the offense," rather the offense just occurs according to what play is called and it is naturally panned out. Everyone takes part in it. Lol i'm struggling to express what im trying to say but hopefully you get me
Well to say it easier: the initiator is the one that gets the offense going. He doesn`t have to be the one that creates a shot, he just has to be the one to bring everybody in position to do their part to the called play. So if it is an easy play, just wait till everybody is in position than pass to the wing. Like I said, if it was Steve he might pass the ball to late and dribble too much, if it was MJ he might be too aggressive, trying to drive to often, if it was Luther it might take him to long to get the ball up the field, he might loose it or don`t be in the right position to start the play. Initiating the offense might sound easy, but there is a lot too it, like brining the ball up quick and safely, reading the defense, knowing what everyone has to do and when they have to do it, get in the right position and pass at the right time (or dribble to the right spot, whatever the play asks you to do).
basically it's someone who brings the ball up and passes to where the ball needs to go. im always calm and confident whenever rafer has the ball. im not as confident in mike james because he can be out of control at times, and im even less confident when francis has the ball because his decisions are way too slow.
Hmm. That makes it clearer. But it still doesnt prove why there is an initiator of the offense. Why is it up to rafer, or on a larger scale, Pg's in general, to initiate the offense. A Pg cant initiate the offense without a lot of other factors. Other than bringing the ball up, the rest depends on the play, the players in the play and what the defence does during the play, hence my point that no one really initiates the offense, it just depends on what the play is and how the play pans out. Basically what i am saying is that the offense wont work unless EVERYONE on the floor reads the defense, knows what everyone has to do and when they have to do it, get in the right position and pass at the right time. Rafer just makes the first pass of the offense but IMO this doesnt mean he "initiates it" Am i making sense or am i just repeating myself and making no sense??
Well, of course everyone on the team is important for a play to work, but there is this one guy who has to get the ball up the court, call the play, read the defense and get everyone going. If it would be that easy, we wouldn`t really need a pg, since everyone on the team could do it. Just compare Luther, or Steve to RA. Both are way slower to inititate the offense, so we have a lot less minutes. Look ar where Luther is passing the ball, usually this player isn`t in a real good position. There is really a lot to timing, positioning, playing the right pass and just make the other guys on the team comfortable, cause they trust you know what you are doing. Combine that with the time it takes the pg to get up the court and it is already a big part of the game. Last year we didn`t really have set plays other than: - hand the ball to T-Mac outside the 3pt line, he will know what to do - hand the ball to T-Mac outside the 3pt line, and play a pick & roll with Yao - pass the ball to Yao, he will score or know what to do - pass the ball to the wing, the wing player will pass it to Yao Expect something different this year with the new offense!
Skip is not a Steve Nash, J-Kidd type PG where you give him the ball and let him create for others. But in this offense, you don't need that. All he has to do is bring the ball up the court, set screens/make cuts, hit the occasional jumper and give the ball to T-mac or Yao. So in sense, he is not really "running the offense", unless you think dribbling the ball up court is running the offense.
lol. So then im hoping to see how someones initiates the offense in a more complex system. 1 more question though. To put it in a real life example ill run through a simple play and you tell me who initiates the offense. 1. Rafer brings the ball up the court with no pressure on him. 2. (off the ball) Battier makes a "V" cut or "in and out cut" to shake the defender who is denying him the ball. 3. Rafer then passes Battier the ball on the left wing. 4. Battier waits for Yao to get into position so he can throw the right pass. 5. (off the ball) Yao flashes from the high post to the left block and gets into position. 6. Battier passes Yao the ball. 7. Yao looks to score but is doubled from the weak side. 8. (off the ball) Luther Head is staying in the opposite corner while his defender goes and doubles Yao. 9. Yao makes the cross court pass to Luther. 10. Luther hits the open shot from the corner. In this play here, who initiates the offense and why?
Then how come some people either criticize it or applaud it? And in the case of Nash and Kidd, they still need players to get into the right position to make the right pass, or the good screen to come off so they can draw players and kick it out. So then is initiating the offense just creating - like Nash and Kidd? Or is it more than that? Couldnt someone initiate the offense by setting a good pick or making a good, well timed cut?? Not many Pg's do that. Maybe i am just confused.. I dont want to start sounding like that "Tmac is not a point-forward" guy.
Thats my point exactly. IMO there is no real initiation of the offense. Rather a play is called and it unfolds. Now if people say that the initiator is the creator then i can accept that to a degree, however rafer is not a creator, yet he is good at initiating the offense. Nash and Kidd are good creators as is Tmac (hence the leaders in assists last year) however they dont "initiate the offense" I cant see how anyone initiates the offense. And your right, i would have to say the coach initiates the offense and the players construct it and play it out.
Rafer is... which also tells you that initiating the offense isn`t always hard. But everybdy is doing their part in the offense with Yao creating the shot. Of course he ain´t as good in creating offense like Nash, Parker or even Mike James. But that is a different story. And it seems like the system of RA will be creating a lot of offense with all the cuts, so we don`t really need this creator, who slashes by his defender and passes to the open man that much. To cut it short: when talking about initating the offense I think most people mean what I talked about above. You could say this is overrated, MJ und SF can do this as well, and they also bring the playmaking ability to the table. But when you just look at the initating of the offense, I think you can`t argue with Rafer being the best of our pgs.
Then by judging what your saying, initiating the offense is such an overrated term used in the NBA. Really anyone can do it. Creating shots for others on the other hand is a lot harder and more complex. And what you talked about above (Making the right pass, reading the defense, get in the right position and pass at the right time) is necessary for all players on the team, especially in RA's system. So really this team doesnt need a creator, just someone who can do those things. I wouldnt call it initiating the offense though. Rafer just fits what the team needs more from the point (passing, reading defense etc.) where as MJ and SF3 are better at creating for themselves and others. IMO this is just 2 different styles of point guards and not 1 type who can initiate an offense and one type that cant because if we needed scoring out of the pg than MJ and SF3 would be better "initiators." Basically im saying there is no such thing as an initiator, rather just a style of play that fits a team and the way they play. In our case Rafer fits it better than MJ and SF3 Am i going around in circles.
Lol. I think its a bit different though. He was a bit obsessive about it as well. I just want to know what it means and why people are saying it so often. I think the term "initiate the offense" is just extremely broad and is different for every team and every system. Maybe that is the answer?? If i had to give a definition of it, it would be something along the lines of: The role that the Pg plays in the system and the things he needs to do to keep the system running?? i dono...
The person who initiates the offense is the floor general who points people to where there supposed to be and gets the ball to the right places where it'll make it easier to scorer for he's or her teammates. perfect exampel was someone like stockton. Kidd and nash are great at it to. kidd especially.
