A couple of things: 1. It's obviously the father's right to refuse to sign the waiver for whatever reason he feels necessary. If not, then why does a guardian have to sign? He felt that MSU or Miami would be better for his son because of the coaching situations there. It's a parenting decision and I'm still trying to figure out why it's news in the first place. 2. As for the white dad saying that to his son and how the nation would call it racist, it's a little different situation. There aren't too many schools (probably none outside of the Historical Black Colleges) that have a predominantly black coaching staff. He didn't want his son going to an all-Black coaching staff, he just wanted his son to go to a school that seemed like they were giving fair chances to black coaches (Miami just hired a black coordinator). 3. I hiring of black coaches, or lack thereof is a very disturbing trend in both college and pro football. I mean Marvin Lewis leads the best defense EVER and gets one freakin' interview? Art Shell, who led the Raiders to three playoff appearances in five years, gets passed over year after year while Marty Schottenhiemer gets job after job. 25 job openings for head coaches in the NCAA and one goes to an African-American. I'm pretty sure it's not blatant racism, at least I hope it's not, but you've got to understand how people could perceive it that way and how they would want their sons to do something that may change how these places hire coaches. ------------------ www.swirve.com "Pre-born, you're fine, pre-school, you're f*****."-George Carlin
Is there anything left for white people to do in sports, other than buy 80 percent of the tickets and merchandise...?
shanna posts an article about how racial issues were involved in a particular athlete's choice of college. RM95 says he thinks that the lack of black coaches is disturbing. Your quote just sounds off topic and inflammatory. What's your point? Are you worried that soon white people will no longer play a role in sports? Is this article foreshadowing some dramatic change? [This message has been edited by jamcracker (edited May 21, 2001).]
And you'd think if they can deal with watching sports that are well over 50% African-American, they could deal with more black coaches as well. ------------------ www.swirve.com "Pre-born, you're fine, pre-school, you're f*****."-George Carlin
Two fun questions to spice things up (these do not reflect my beliefs): (1) Is there really a lack of black coaches in pro-football? There are 3 out of 30, or 10%. African Americans make up about 10% of the American population (I believe). Coincidence? (2) Some people might answer the above with "but pro-football consists of more than 50% African-Americans, so there should be more coaches reflecting that". Then a fun follow-up question is why aren't we concerned with the lack of white people as pro-football players? ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
You'd also think that if we believe that blacks are disproportionately represented in professional athletics based on merit, then maybe merit plays some role in selecting coaches too.
BrianKagy, Your statement was: a) not funny b) racist I never figured what kind of person would say stuff like this, until I finally met Kagy in person. I'll tell you what kinda person says stuff like this: a pale, scrawny, p***y-whipped, pencil-necked geek.
*sigh* Hard to build merit if you never given a shot as pointed out. . . with Lewis . . he isn't given a shot. . . not because he not qualified Why is he not given a real shot . . .rather than a pacifying interview by one team . . . .while there are coaches with NO NFL experience getting more chances? Is being a NFL Coordinator better than being a NCAA Head Coach? hard to work ya way through the system when ya not allowed in . . or given a shot Rocket River ------------------
So because they buy most of the tickets and merchandising . .. we going to let them in . . .not on MERIT but because becuase they buy tickets? [which incedently they chose how much those tickets cost] Rocket River ------------------
What is the point of this? Are you trying to bring yourself down to the level at which you accuse Brian of being? There is never a need for mean personal attacks. ------------------ "You sanctimonious philistines, who scoff at me!"
There should be questions. Blacks are about 12% of the total population. If you were to just look at that, yes, shanna, 3/30 would be a good approximation. As has been said, that's not an accurate way to look at it, though. Blacks account for *far* greater than 10% of the people who play/study football (i.e the applicant pool). You would think coaches would come from this segment of the population, so the number of coaches should be more reflective of that pool of people, not the 12%. Along the same lines, Latinos are about 12% of the total population, yet their 0 NFL coaches may be representative as there are seemingly so few Latino people who surround themsleves with football. A staff can't be expected to reflect the population, it should reflect the applicant pool. Yeah, there probably is a dirty undercurrent in there. As for your question #2, shanna, I look at it from the opposite side. Why are so many Black people in athletics (not why are there so few White people)? I think it's because Blacks more than Whites are looking to athletics as their road to success. Overall, that's a disadvantage, so White people should be ecstatic that "their" kids are avoiding that pitfall. I'm not implying a grand conspiracy - the blame on that issue can be spread around to all sorts of factors. How many Black NBA coaches are there? How many Black NBA coaches were there five years ago? Why are so many of the new coaches in the NBA Black? Will we see a similar trend in the NFL? BK - From jamcracker's "lovely" description, I assume you're white. If there was no role for white people on the field/sidelines/owner's boxes, would you still buy tickets and merchandise? If not, then maybe jamcracker's right - you are prejudiced. If it wouldn't affect you, what's the point of asking the question? ------------------ **
Kellen Sr's. decision does not appear to be rooted in racism, but is more rooted in "making a statement". I suspect that he has found an opportunity to bring attention to a perceived failure. I guess in the end it worked out between he and his son, but it does appear that he was using his son's ability to further his own agenda. That is the part I did not like. ------------------
Jamcracker- You know why there will always be racism? Because anytime someone refutes a a "race issue" statement, whether it be truthful, joking, sarcastic, or whatever, someone is always going to call them racist. ------------------ If Bill Gates had a dime for every time Windows crashed... Oh, Wait!! He Does!
Jammie: With all due respect, people have been kicked off of this board for saying less than that. Personal attacks on individuals really have no place here so you probably restrict your comments to the discussion at hand. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
I could never imagine someone saying the inflammatory stuff Brian says. I never thought I'd attribute someone's opinions to their physical characteristics. That all changed when I met Brian. Once I took a good look at him, I could easily imagine this scrawny little guy spewing venom at the keyboard. Just trying to share my insight with all you guys who haven't been lucky enough to meet him in person.
I am as liberal as anyone on this board but I think the issues here are more about timing than racism. We've only had about 25 years of TRUE integration in professional sports. Guys like Pat Riley, Rudy Tomjanovich, Phil Jackson, etc, etc were all players in a league that was still fairly evenly split. In addition, others in the NBA were assitants and scouts for years before being coaches. I guarantee that, as these coaches begin to retire, the make up of coaching in the NBA will begin to shift because more players like Alvin Gentry and Nate McMillan will begin to find vacancies. The same thing goes for the NFL or NCAA. You can coach a lot longer than you can play. It also takes time for players to move from the ranks of player to coach or GM. Fewer minority coaches in professional sports today is a result of fewer minorities PLAYING professional sports 25 years ago. Eventually, the changes that have happened to the racial make up of the leagues over the years will be reflected in hiring. Things don't change overnight. The real question is what about minorities that are not African American. Why aren't there more Hispanic coaches in basketball (nevermind baseball - that is a whole other ballgame, literally ) or more Asian football coaches? Why aren't there more Jewish coaches or more coaches of middle eastern decent? You could make arguments for all of them. As for Winslow, I see no problem with him trying to place his son in a position he sees as best. In fact, in his case, I would be more than willing to trust his judgement based on the fact that he has gone through what his son is about to. I don't view it as much a reflection on Winslow's attitudes as a reflection of his experience. It may be somewhat out of touch or maybe not, but it is for him to decide. He is the father. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
If it helps, I'm a pale, overweight, dirty, smelly, scruffily dressed hippy-wannabe who can't even find a girl to whip me.
We could make plenty of assumptions about you based on your appearance as well Jammie, but why bother. It only serves to make the person judging look stupid. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
I'm kinda in with Brian in this one. To me saying that most coaches should be Black since most of the athletes are Black are about as ridiculous as saying most coaches should be White since Whites buy most of the merchandise and such. To me if someone was in a position to hire a coach or someone in power. The primary thing that person should consider would be whether or not a candidate would help produce a winner on the field. In other words, the merit of the candidate. And that should be the topic of any discussion concerning coaching vacancies and filling of vacancies. Putting race into the equation makes it inflamatory. Oh, please watch with the labeling. Calling someone a racist is quite a strong statement and should be used with the care. In my opinion, just because one does not agree with another in a certain issue in which race is brought up does not make the other a 'racist'. Having said that, Im with RM95 in that I am kinda wondering why this is that big of a deal, it is entirely within a parents rights to do what happened here. ------------------
