Hopefully Jeff and Mrs. JB will post in this thread about this topic. Something that I have mentioned here before is that my CD player went out in my car a couple of weeks ago. As a result, I was forced (and still am) to listen to the radio. Inevitably, I started listening to the pop stations and I got hooked on some songs. Granted these songs aren't anything earth-shattering; they are pretty insipid, but they are so damn catchy! I am ashamed to say that I bought Avril Lavigne's CD and the new Liz Phair CD. Now I had heard that Liz's new CD was different from "Exile in Guyville" and "Whip-Smart". Those 2 CDs are ones that I don't listen too much simply because I am not a big fan of Liz's droning monotone voice. However, the musicianship is excellent and if you are big into songwriting, indie rock, low-fi sounds, then you either have stuff by her or need to buy these first 2 albums. The first time I heard "Why Can't I" on the radio, I never would have guessed in a million years that it was Liz Phair singing that song. It sounded like Avril Lavigne and then I realized later that the people (the Matrix) that write a lot of Avril's songs wrote that one. Now, I don't know if Liz has actually gotten a better singing voice or it is fancy studio effects, but I do know this: I can actually enjoy the singing parts of these songs and there is a melody. I do understand why some of her fans would be dismayed by this change and would accuse her of "selling out". Yet, the more I think of this, the more I wonder is she really "selling out" or just growing as an artist and getting more confident with her singing voice? Just like Madonna re-invents herself every so often, isn't that what Liz is doing? To me, "selling out" is making an obvious attempt at trying to sell records to an audience that has no idea of who you are and as a result, you have changed some of your principles. I guess using that definition, Liz Phair has sold out to me. But I can't help the fact that I do like this CD simply because I can now remember the melodies to the songs. I think I have officially removed my snobbiness when it comes to music, although, that was obvious, I guess, when I revealed that I bought Avril Lavigne's CD.
I'll pray for you... To me, selling out means abandoning your characteristic "sound", or more specifically watering down your "sound" in order to gain a larger fanbase. In other words, finding fans instead of letting fans find you. For a good reference, see: Red Hot Chili Peppers REM Sting Metallica
totally...totally...totally disagreed. sting left the Police to explore jazz a bit...he has done that...his albums are very eklectic, which is exactly what he WANTED to do...and I might note, they haven't been huge sellers on par with what he did with the Police. there is selling out...and then there's just maturing. i think sting's music has matured. evolved.
No no no, don't misunderstand me. I'm a huge Sting fan (I've seen him 4 times). I just think everything after Ten Summners Tales has been pretty watered down compared to his first 4 albums. For the most part, I was talking about that Jaguar commercial with his song in it. Not to mention the Compaq commercial with Brand New Day. In my book, selling your music to a car company and a computer company would be selling out.
my brain isn't really working right now but when talking about selling out there are tons of so called rappers who aren't what they claim to be. Ja Rule, look at him, he went from "Holla Holla" to singing duets with Jlo and Ashanti. Kid Rock - listen to the 1st 2 albums, then listen to "Cocky", i think it's obvious
i see what you're saying...i don't know...i really don't see that as selling out...but that's just me, i guess. his music is appreciated...i'd chalk it up to that. do you have his live album, "All This Time?" I really enjoy that album...jazzy renditions of a lot of his favorites. good stuff.
ima, Your explanation for why you think that Sting sold out is a plausible one, but would you consider Moby a "sell-out" since he licensed so many songs off "Play"? I mean it wasn't like he was that known to begin with; what he did, I think was a savvy move that helped increase his audience big-time. Yet, Moby is not someone that you will hear on pop radio, for the most part. Come on Mrs. JB and the other Liz Phair fans (like TheFreak ) out there! You have to comment, I implore you!
I absolutely agree with that Manny. When you start selling an image of yourself that was created for you to sell records you have sold out. This happened with Liz, she must have had a Fab 5 makeover before her last album was released - she doesn't look or sound the same anymore. Another good example of this is 311. They were a great band from Omaha with a different kind of sound but when they got their first big record contract they said they were from LA, because who'd want to listen to a band from Omaha anyway? Those are the first steps of a sellout. oomp
Good topic. One which I had an inkling to start a while back but didn't. What is selling out? IMHO, selling out is when an artist fails to continue to grow and explore new boundries as an artist. He/She become complacent with the way they sound and don't continue to raise their artistry to the next level. You see it all the time these days, some band will have a hit record and then the record labels sign any band that sounds like them. The problem with artists growing and exploring new sounds or anything new, are the record labels. They want what has proven to sell. So if a band makes a hit record, the record companies want the follow up record to sound the same because it has been proven that it sells. To a certain extent, they prohibit the band from growing (in most cases). On the other side of the coin is the band's fans. Often times they don't let the band/artist explore new avenues either. They want to hear the same stuff over and over again. Most bands/artists continue to feed the fans what they want, which is a MAJOR reason music is at a stand still today(IMHO, of course). There are lots of bands/artists that do grow and continually get new fans with each recording. A true artist is never happy with his work and always feels they could have done it better.
Jewel is the most recent HUGE sellout. Geeze, she's trying to look just like Britney. I guess looking like her is not so bad.
Manny -- I've never personally thought of anyone as a "sellout". But I think some people proclaim an artist a sellout when they perceive that an artist is trying to be popular. And, of course, the new Liz Phair album is an excellent example of that. She was an instant lo-fi indie darling when her first record debuted in 93. The recording stunk, her voice was awful and she sang about various sexual acts -- translation: the critics loved her. Now, three albums later, she's made a conscious effort to make a well-produced record with a wider appeal and those same critics are calling her every awful name in the book. (The NYTimes review of her album was so scathingly evil, I'm surprised she hasn't sued for libel.) I honestly don't get it. I've been a fan since her first album and I think she's just as good on this latest release. The only difference is a slicker production job. Big deal. It seems like there are some people that are personally offended when a band they liked before they were popular decides to try and reach a wider audience -- like, once an artist has sold a million records, it's time to move on to a less well-know (and therefore hipper) band to impress your friends with. Just listen to what you like and forget about anyone else's opinion of it. Trust me, they're all too busy worrying about what you think of their taste in music to even notice the Avril Lavigne disc on your stereo.
you're a jedi, aren't you? seriously...i could not agree more. i am always mystified by those who stop liking music simply because many others like it as well. or because a slicker production job is done the second time around. seems absolutely silly to me.
Hooray!!! Mrs. JB, the only other Liz Phair fan here (I think), has posted in this thread! See that is what I think too is that she has gotten more confident with her singing voice and made a conscious effort in making a well-produced album. Now, I won't deny that Liz is a very attractive woman and that her looks would help her become a big pop star (which leads me to believe that is why Jewel is trying so hard to look sexy...so she can become the next Britney or whatever) plus you have Lavigne's songwriters writing some songs for her. On the surface, it screams "pop sell-out" but this is why I think this case is so interesting because, to me, it is somewhat ambivalent. However, what is your feelings on the fact that Liz only plays like on two songs? I was reading from some of her fans that her not playing much at all on the album was the most unforgivable sin of all. But I didn't think that was a big deal as I guess I could not get over at how much better she sounds with her singing voice! To me, Liz reminds me of Sheryl Crow. She has some songs that are obviously pop but she has lots of other stuff that I don't feel are radio friendly (which includes a lot of her 2nd album with the exception of the 3 hits like "Makes You Happy", "Change", and "Every Day Is a Winding Road"). It was just that Sheryl could sing and Liz couldn't, but now she can. Bob, Very good post!
There is a reason it is called the music BUSINESS. Every artist knows that the reason they sign a contract, make a record, make a video, do concerts is to take their art into the world of commerce. If you didn't want to do that, you wouldn't sign a deal and whittle away your days in nameless obscurity. Besides, it is nearly impossible to sellout in the music industry. Only about 1 in every 100,000 bands or artists that try to "make it" in the business (meaning making enough money to pay the bills), manage to survive and usually only for one or two releases. Out of the handful that do, only about 1 in every million of those become the superstars we think of when we think of Madonna or Bruce Springsteen, etc.. To suggest that an artist sells out is to suggest he/she makes and releases an overly commercial recording for the sole purpose of becoming rich and famous to the detriment of his/her art. Given the parameters of the industry, it is almost impossible to do that. There is absolutely NO guarantee that success will find you no matter who you are. I also think that people often view change as selling out. As people grow older, their tastes naturally change. If you are still playing the same music at 40 you were at 18, you either have not grown as an artist or your voice was so singularly powerful at 18, it wasn't necessary. Because the latter represents only about .0001 percent of musicians out there, it seems to me that most musicians just see their tastes change over time and that is reflected in their art. That is the natural progression of both age and artistry. We're so funny in America. In most parts of the world, you don't get to be a well-respected master musician until you are in your 40's or 50's. Until that time, most consider you un-refined or still learning. Of course, there are prodigies, but most hone their skills over a lifetime of practice and experience. Here, we just assume you are done by the age of 25. It should be no surprise that some of the best recordings that have come out over the last decade were made by artists in their 30's and 40's. What should be the prime of an artist's career is often the end and that's a real shame for the artist, but even more of a tragedy for music lovers. We're the ultimate losers in that scenario.
You know, if she was any type of fantastic guitar player, it might be an issue. But I don't think anyone ever bought a Liz Phair record to hear her intricate fretboard phrasings. The funny thing is, her last record "whitechocolatespaceegg" was quite poppy and didn't sound anything like her first record either. But it didn't get blasted by the press. I think the only difference is that, by hiring pop producers this time around, she telegraphed her mass-appeal intentions to the music critics. This gave them all the "sellout" ammunition they needed when they finally got the chance to review this release.
