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Westbrook: "I don't give a f*** about (my stat) line."

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Clutch, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy QUEEN ANON

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    7th grade bball coach used to drop "cotton picking" often. Didn't bother anyone then. I think it evolved to "cherry picking" over time.
     
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    And perimeter players seem to find it easier to rebounding these days, for whatever reason
     
  3. ipaman

    ipaman Member

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    Almost 800 games played in his career and he never had 20+ rebounds until last night. If that doesn't make him a bold face liar then I don't know what does. Stat padding liar and KD knew it before all of us.
     
  4. xtruroyaltyx

    xtruroyaltyx Member

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    More threes, more spacing.

    Less congestion in the paint and longer rebounds.
     
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  5. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Isn’t the simple answer differences in personnel and coaching philosophy? Not every team needs to play the same way. And Steve Nash and Russell Westbrook are very different in their strengths/weaknesses.

    Here’s another article on the impact of guard rebounding on transition offense:

    https://fansided.com/2015/09/09/rebounding-positionality-and-transition-play/
     
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  6. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Thanks for the article. It shows that it is not a clear winning strategy because it has both positive and negative effects.

    The question I posed (not originated by me) is that if it was a clearly good tactic, more teams would use it more. For example, the PnR has been used by all teams, some more and some less. But it is a good offensive strategy regardless of your personnel and coaching philosophy. Even the prolific shooting of 3-pointers in recent years due to the use of analytics (together with the change of rules) is not something totally new. Rudy T was using it in the 1990's.

    I have seen no team that asks the big men to box out for the PG to get the rebounds as a "coaching philosophy" until last season's Thunder. That should tell us something.
     
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  7. rockets13champs

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    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahagahahahahahahahahahahahahagahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    BTW, the next article on team rebounding is great. I have been saying that individual rebounding is overrated by a lot of people. Team rebounding is what you should value.

    Our team rebounding actually improved after we had lost an elite individual rebounder in Dwight.
     
  9. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Member

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    Not to come off rude or anything, trust me I don’t imply nothing, but do you even watch the games? I used to think you were a pretty level headed guy who kept it as objective as possible.

    But lately a lot you have just been seeming very contrarian just to be contrarian.

    It’s almost as if you just read the numbers to draw conclusions, which overall isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it lacks proper perspective.

    I always assumed you watched games because you were knowledgeable and objective. Plus your passion for advanced NBA stats. But maybe your just a stats guy and not an nba guy?

    I mean, I will absolutely give Westbrook credit for being a very good-great rebounding guard. One of the best of all time.

    But he doesn’t need to average 10 to be recognized for that. And he doesn’t need Adams, melo, pg etc.. boxing other players out to provide him extra rebounds.

    If you can’t see that he isn’t purposely hunting rebounds for the round number you are not watching. It’s not about transition at all, or getting the ball into his hands ASAP. It’s about the stat.

    Now not every rebound is like that. He gets some actual boards in traffic. He scrambles for the loose balls. But a bunch come from purpose driven box outs or thieving of a teammates rebound.

    .
    .
    .

    Also, as for the whole “if the pg rebounds it’s better because it starts the fast real quicker” there is merit. And yes, harden had a spike last year also in dreb%.

    They both started to employ a strategy where either harden or Westbrook would grab the rebound after a missed FT that way they could immediately survey the defense and push the pace.

    The difference was harden didn’t seek this non stop but did have it happen maybe once to two times a game. Westbrook did it every time. Not only that Westbrook started doing it every possession and ultimately it progressed to him ignoring his defensive obligation so he could ball hawk and search out a rebound.

    Now, cheating off your man and searching out a rebound isn’t always a bad thing; especially depending on who your defending.

    The problem lies within him snatching rebounds from teammates and then ultimately forcing them to box out for him instead.

    If you got Adams boxing out player X, so Westbrook can run in and grab the rebound it doesn’t help your transition. In the front court it’s 3vs4 with Westbrook just starting the push. Now, your best screener is out of the play so you can’t run a simple quick pnr to attack.


    Most all of his points out of this scenario result directly from his explosiveness, speed and aggressiveness to just run at you and attack.

    He would be twice as better in this regard if he leaked out and let Adams catch him in stride.
     
  10. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Please point out where I denied that he will purposely hunt for rebounds in order to get to double digits? He absolutely does this. In fact, many players do this, and there are studies that show that to be the case. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me as thinking that Westbrook is going after rebounds without paying any mind to his stats.

    I already said earlier in this thread that there is a tradeoff, and he could probably find a better balance between seeking out rebounds and being more attentive in his defensive obligations.

    Steven Adams has said that Westbrook allowing him to focus on the box out rather than having to box out and pursue the rebound is helpful to the team. Carmelo Anthony has said that Westbrook does steal rebounds, but it helps the team's transition. I can pull up the quotes if you like. Am I being "contrarian" by thinking that his teammates may genuinely believe that to be true?



    Well, of course. But that assumes Adams can cleanly get the rebound with his best rebounding teammate leaking out and he can throw an accurate outlet pass over the defenses. There's an art to that. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    How many teams have a PG with Russell Westbrook's abilities as a rebounder and transition beast? And that OKC has gone to extremes relative to other teams in allowing Westbrook to go after rebounds doesn't mean the tactic has no merit. It would be like arguing that Rockets choosing to shoot 40+ 3s a night can't be a good tactic when no other team does this.
     
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  12. omgTHEpotential

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    You can just chest trackable data on NBA.com and see that Westbrook is among league leaders (if not #1) in UNCONTESTED rebounds.
     
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  13. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    I've heard the expression "out of his cotton picking mind" since I was a kid.(over 40 years now), hell my grandparents used to say that about me whenever I would do something stupid like jump off the peak of the roof.

    I never asked why, just assumed at the time it was something that old people said.
     
  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    At least Westbrook isn't lazy like harden is. Harden used to be fat and lazy last year, so there's improvement.

    Yes people, it's the day after a rockets loss.
     
  15. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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  16. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Not the same. Shooting 3s is something every team does. The fact that it is used more than other teams is a coaching philosophy. Like my other example of PnR, all teams use it. If you have a great PnR guard, you'd expect that you'd use more than teams that don't have one.

    Boxing out for the PG to get rebounds is done by no other teams. It's not just that the Thunder is doing this more than other teams because of Westbrook. And I don't think you can say that Westbrook is the ONLY PG that is good at getting rebounds and fastbreak. He may be the best. But he certainly is not the only one. If it was a clearly good strategy, you would expect other teams to do it at least some of the times.

    It's like saying, if a team doesn't have a Steph Curry, it is not expected to shoot 3s.
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Well, that makes sense. Nobody picks cotton off the peak of the roof. :D
     
  18. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    I see it differently. Many teams have players who will box out for teammates from time to time. You don’t think Capela or Tucker or Nene will box out for Harden or Chris Paul now and then? I think this kind of play is not as uncommon as you are making it out to be, league wide.

    It could be that the Thunder are unique in devising a purposeful strategy in which their PG will roam for rebounds while other players box out. It is also entirely plausible, however, that he would be better at turning this into an advantage for his team than any other PG, because as you say he is the best at his position in securing a rebound and following that up by ramming the ball into the opposing team’s defense. If you accept that, then there is a simple explanation for why other teams may not pursue this strategy even if it works for the Thunder. The trade off just isn’t worth it for them.
     
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  19. Rowdy4Life

    Rowdy4Life Member

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    I guess I’m not understanding the outrage here. Around the depression working Cotton was the number one trade in Texas. Hell, we have a freaking bowl game and stadium named after it.

    The idea behind the saying was that, even if finding a job was tough around that time, you had to be crazy to subject yourself to that type of grueling physical labor.

    I suppose that people should open a text book or talk to their grandparents more because this generation is growing further and further out of touch.
     
  20. BigMaloe

    BigMaloe Member

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    Not that you said he didn’t do it but more so you seem to be implying it’s not that frequent or detrimental. Like it’s some sort of brilliant new tactic to go out of your way to appease your star and this thirst for stats.

    Sure, other players might do that every once and a while. Maybe harden one or two games a year is an assist or 2 from a 3/10 and will start trying to find some assists if the game is comfy. I remember him staying late in a blowout trying to get 50.

    I could also see a player like Gordon once a year if he’s havin a brilliant game. And he is just like 1 maybe 2 rebounds away from a 3/10. He may hunt for that rebound or 2, and the team likely helps him out.

    But not every fuucking game, and sometimes embarrassingly so. Like this game against Memphis where he stat whored the ENTIRE game. It’s pahetic really.
    If you noticed the great games okc has against top teams, it’s because he finds that balance. Against Houston this last match he only had 6 rebounds. He also didn’t chuck a whole lot and guess what? They won.

    And then he realized he need so many more rebounds to get his average and went bananas stat chasing.
    Shiit, I can pull quotes where harden and Dwight talked about being good teammates and no chemistry issues.

    I can find quotes all day from players who lie to the media or just fiddle the truth.

    Sure, obviously Adams is ok with doing this. Melo is joking about it. It’s a team, they don’t betray each other to the masses. A locker room etiquette is powerful. Lots of dirty secrets.
    If Adams was on any other team I think he is competing with Drummond and Jordan for best rebounder in the game. He’s one of the best offensive rebounders of all time and his damn box outs are spectacular.

    I agree that the leak pass isn’t as easy as it seems.
     
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