Were the Founders of the US Christians; is this a Christian Nation

I can tell you right now George Washington made a ton of statements which lead me to believe he was not a deist. A deist believes in a god that creates the universe and then completely steps back. Yet Washington is quoted over and over again as seeing the hand of providence in the way events played out. I don't think you can square his writings and what we know of his beliefs with deism. It seems that either I or the author of this book is defining deism incorrectly. I've read a ton of books on Washington and never read anything about refusing to kneel...not sure what those sources are.

Jefferson wrote a letter to a friend about Christianity. He was always very skeptical of Christianity...but he described his view of a loving God who works for the betterment of the universe through His devoted followers...he goes on to say, "if this is Christianity, then I am a Christian." Yet he's constantly labelled a deist. He certainly decided that the miracles of Christ were not real...he was very much a realist and more of a skeptic of everyone and everything....see limited goverment!

I admittedly know nothing of the religious background of Paine or Lincoln. But I find it funny that the author uses these 4 gentlemen to jump to a conclusion for the whole of a nation. At the very least, Judeo-Christian ethics have deeply affected the US. I don't know the personal relationships these guys had with Christ, if any of them did...but I see all this talk of deism all the time, and I don't find a ton of evidence for it. At the same time, I don't want this to be a government that places preferential treatment for one religious group over the other. That breeds contempt for the church and a slew of other problems.

It seems clear that the author has an axe to grind. Particularly when he indicts modern political leaders for use of Christianity when he thinks they deem it appropriate...and ignorance of it when he thinks its inconvenient for them. Pretty typical approach...nothing we haven't seen before.

 

I'd like to have a list showing what each of the founding fathers was. Many of them were deists; I'm sure others claimed to be Christians.

I don't believe America is a Christian nation. I don't believe nations are Christian; individual people are. Even if there happened to be a nation where the majority of people (including leaders) were Christians, I still don't think such would constitute a "Christian nation" (as we often use that phrase). It would just be a nation that happened to be composed of a majority of Christians.

 

Funny article.

It might show the US wasn't entirely founded by Christians which I believe is true, but not necessarily word for word from the article. I don't believe the US is a Christian State, I believe its a democratic state that is heavily influenced by Christians.

The US being founded by Christian Gentlemen doesn't say only.

Accusations are not necessarily the truth. Only a small percentage of the signors of the constitution were listed in the article, but more importantly in a representative democracy the officials represent their constituents, who were mostly Christian (I think this is true).

I see lots of speculation and plenty of conclusions drawn. Big accussations, but where are the qoutes. The one qoute says he doesn't believe in organized religion, not that he doesn't believe in God.

Deist believed in God (which in my opinion is the most important piece of Christianity), but not the works atributed him in the Bible. There are Christians with some Deists views today.

 

Washington- Washington's own diaries record that in 1769 he attended church only ten times, in 1770 nine times, in 1771 and 1772 six times, and in 1773 five times. Such sporadic church attendance reflects, at best, a perfunctory attempt at conforming to social proprieties.

He was closer to being a Deist than a Christian.

The Adams (The John and John Quincy)- Both were unitarians.

Jefferson- Here's some quotes from Jefferson....not exactly proof of any Christian leanings...

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."


Madison? Not a Christian.....can hardly blame him though, when you consider that at the time, in Virginia, Speaking impiously of any articles of Christianity, blaspheming God's name, and incorrigible cursing were acts deemed worthy of the death penalty.

Lincoln- Was a deist as a youth.....supposedly became a Christian some time later in his life, but was more likely attracted to the mystic aspect of the religion.....he was a bit odd and bipolar at that.

In fact, I don't think there was an open Christian president in office until the late 19th century....might have even been early 20th century.....I can't recall.

It wouldn't have mattered if every single president had been a bible-toting evangelist though. It still wouldn't have changed the secular foundation of this republic. You can peer, probe and dissect all you want, but you won't find any Christian references, even obliquely, in the founding documents.

I never understood why some tried to push their beliefs, posthumously, on the founders of this nation. We never were, were never intended to be, and hopefully never will be a "Christian nation".

 

interesting...i will say i don't find quotes from Jefferson to be proof one way or another...we have no idea at what point or in what context in his life Jefferson made those comments given the information we have here. again, i've seen other comments from Jefferson that would make you think he was more of a believer than those...he certainly was skeptical of organized religion. but you could take quotes from my lifetime and use them in the abstract and say, "look...clearly this guy isn't a christian!!" but i don't think that would adequately reflect the truth.

as for Washington..I see a man of faith. He talks all the time about how he is thankful for the hand of providence and God's work in the Revolution. True, we don't see much talk of theology, but I don't think the absence of that would have us jump to the conclusion that the man wasn't a Christian. church attendance is not a prerequisite to salvation for a Christian...it is a chance to worship, and certainly could be argued that its absence denotes a man who didn't believe in the teachings of Christ...but I don't think that tells the whole stories..it's these sort of incomplete half-truths that are characteric of articles like this one.

are you sure about Madison??? maybe I have him mixed up with someone else, but it seems to me he was an episcopalian (late-Anglican)....i know he makes reference to church polity and structure when framing the ideas for the Constitution.

i'm not sure i see such secular foundation to this nation, as you do. the protestant work ethic is as much the backbone of this country's development as anything else...your statement seems to really deemphasize the importance of the church as community to early Americans.

Are we a Christian nation?? absolutely not...i'm not sure there is such a thing, quite frankly. are we a country heavily influenced by Christianity as a people....absolutely...seems that's pretty hard to deny. that in and of itself doesn't provide any merit to the Bible or to Christianity...but it is true, nonetheless, i think.

 

Max,

I think Christianity's influence on this country is obviously apparent. My point was that those who formed the foundation of this nation went out of their way to ensure limitations on it's influence, and were themselves not strong advocates of its doctrine, which is evident in its absence from any of the founding documents.

Washington- historians aren't sure whether he was or wasn't Christian.....there's evidence that points towards either, I just feel the evidence against him being Christian is stronger.

As far as Madison goes, he was Jefferson's right hand man. Both vehemently fought to curb the power of organized religion. He probably was somewhat religious at one point in his very early years......I just feel that influence waned quite dramatically over time.

We'll just have to disagree about the Protestant work ethic being the backbone of this country....I think that the influx of immigrants during the Industrial Revolution had more to do with the development of this country than anything.

 

This is so wierd because I was just looking at a site that has done extensive research into the concept of the Christian forefather.

Here are a couple of quotes from Lincoln:

<i>"When the Know-Nothings get control, it [the Declaration of Independence] will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.'' When it comes to this I should prefer immigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty--to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion."</i>

Just a quick note on Washington:

<i>Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word "God," preferring the more impersonal word "Providence." How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it. (James Thomas Flexner, George Washington: Anguish and Farewell [1793-1799], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1972, p. 490.)</i>

The site is mainly about separation of church and state, but it covers religion heavily.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html

More than anything, I think that it was made VERY clear that our forefathers were extremely wary of ANY AND ALL religion slipping into government practices. This was a quote from Thomas Jefferson:

<i>"Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting the words "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."</i>

That seems more important to me than anything. At the time, there were Quakers, Diests, Christians, Puritans, Unitarians, Catholics and a variety of other religious practitioners including Jewish, Muslim and Hindu. Quakers and Unitarians, though leaning towards Christianity, might hardly be called Christians at all by today's standards because they believed that all religions had access to God and salvation. Diests, obviously, weren't Christian.

The main thing was that this was a land of refuge for people who wanted to worship freely. As George Washington put it:

<i>"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists...I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong..."</i>

 

agreed Jeff...they did not intend for this to be a Christian nation...and like i said, what is a christian nation anyway??? how would that work???

nevertheless...the quote you posted about washington is one i've read previously on this thread....it seems to me that we can't say washington didn't believe in the Christian God simply because he chose to call Him, Providence. More important, it seems to me, is that he commented on God's direct influence over the events of his lifetime...that seems far more consistent with Christianity than a deist position.

 

I've always been under the impression that most of the "original" founding fathers were Deists. At the very least, they were heavily sympathetic to Enlightenment philosophy which considered God in a Deistic fashion. Much of philosophy from the period viewed God as a "cornerstone" upon which one used Reason to construct paradigms for living.

Ultimately, the question really isn't that interesting though, imo. Who really cares if they were Christians with Enlightenment philosophical tendencies... or Deists who happened to be cultural Christians. It's not material to the US' status as a secular/Christian state.

 

Not necessarily. It depends on where you diest beliefs run. Diests have a rooting in European Paganism and Wicca, both of whom attribute a tremendous amount of importance to "god" in general. It may not be the mono-theistic Big G "God" that follows the Abrahamic religions, but the concept is similar.

Maybe a more realistic discussion would be, "Were our founding fathers <i>religious</i>?" John Quincy Adams, for example, was deeply devoted to Unitarian beliefs and was a very devout man. I think that Washington, Jefferson and some of the others may have practiced religion to some degree but hardly could have been called religious in their convictions.

They seemed more motivated by their desire for freedom from the taxation and "supervision" of the monarchy in England than by God or religion.

 

Where did you hear this Jeff? I've read a bit about Deism, and never encountered any refference to EP or Wicca.

Historically, and intellectually, it seems extremely closely linked with Enlightenment philosophy.

 

I remember this discussion....

The religious right claims that the founding fathers were all stark christians. They're wrong.

People who don't like the religious right claim that they were all deists. They're wrong too.

As with any group of people, there were a wide and varring number of views on christianity. Apparently, at several times, they were very close to including the word 'Jesus' in the constitution, but one group specifically opposed it.

I think the evidence shows that many of those who were the philosophers behind the more radical ideas imbeded in the constitution were also more clearly out there on religious matters. Mostly these are the guys like Jefferson who everybody knows and remembers, as opposed to the Grovenor Morris' of the world.

Conversly, I believe that Washington was one who tended to lean more toward the traditional christian viewpoint, though clearly signing in on the tolerant side.

There was, however, an organised congressional Christian prayer for congress from almost the begining.

The big high water mark for christianity in the US was the latter half of the 19th century. This period was marked by Babtist-style revival meetings, and it was then that 'in god we trust' was added to the cash.

The Linclons, Grants, and their ilk of this nation's history were very Chrisitian in a traditional, conservitive, Babtist way.

If I have time later I'll go back and dig up some quotes that I had posted before that came from places like US gov't treaties, the congressional records, and autobiographies of Jefferson an several other founding fathers.