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We have NO cap room right now! But next year...!!!

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by heypartner, Jun 28, 2001.

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heypartner Member

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When speculating on free agency for the rest of the summer, I am going to remind everyone that we have no cap room right now. We must renounce Dream or sign him for market price before we can even think of free agency.

So, before you talk about Antonio Davis and everything else, ask yourself these two questions:

1. What free agents are worth renouncing Hakeem and losing all our exceptions for one year?

2. How much cap room is created by resigning Dream to market price? Does he want $5m, $7m, $10m?

There is only one free agent worth renouncing Dream and losing all our exceptions for...that is Webber...not Davis. Resigning Dream costs nothing if you look one yr ahead to more free agency (when Walt expires as well).

imo, we should sign Dream to $7-10M for 1 yr and give the middle-class exception to Mo' and try to move Cato's salary for one that will expire next summer. I'd trade him for ANY contract with one yr left on it. Call it pushing our free agency windfall to next year. You know, sorta like the Collier trade where we pushed back our draft windfall to the next year.

Anyone care to calculate our caproom for next summer if we sign Mo to two yrs at Middle Class, while converting Cato's contract to a 1yr contract, with Dream retiring next summer and Walt expiring.

#1 heypartner, Jun 28, 2001

JR Member

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bzzzz . . . try again. Hakeem is going to sign a 2-year deal.

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#2 JR, Jun 28, 2001
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Mo won't accept that. He's looking for a long term deal for large dollars. I hope we don't give it to him unless it's a sign and trade to Sactown or New York for Allan Houston. We already have enough dead weight on this team.

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First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!

[This message has been edited by Timing (edited June 28, 2001).]

#3 Timing, Jun 28, 2001
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How Much Cap Space does Renoucing Dream free up?

If Sign Dream for 7 ~ 10 How much space is left?

Rocket River

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#4 Rocket River, Jun 28, 2001
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HP: I sort of like that idea. I really like A. Davis, and if he was 3 years younger, would want him even more... but that's an interesting proposal.

I don't think Mo would take a middle-class exception. My guess is he's going to want around 7 mill... which I'd give him.

Timing: Why Allan Houston? I've already made my case against him in another thread, but I'm always open to having my mind changed by a persuasive case .

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Don't let those uppity newbies get away with acting like vets...

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#5 haven, Jun 28, 2001
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Bzzzz Hakeem is washed up! Sure, he can have his few good games, but he won't last a playoff run. Unless he is here to teach, let his ass go and get someone that we will need for the future.

Im for Marc Jackson.

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"Bada Bing!"

#6 Space Ghost, Jun 28, 2001
heypartner Member

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JR and Timing....you underestimate my creativity and realistic approach to contract negotiations

read on...

JR, Dream will take $10m for a year, and try
again next yr. surely.

Timing. Mo' makes more money if he does middle class for two years to get Bird rights and then signs a Bird maximum contract for 7yrs. That is what I'm saying.

Basically, you cannot sign Dream to his asking price and give Mo a big payday. I say give Dream the big payday for a yr, and Mo the shortest route to his maximum Bird rights. If Dream doesn't wish to retire next summer, you simple resign him again to $5m or 4m or 3 next year. Regardless, we can and should pay him above market now! We can afford it without ruining our free agent position next year.

Guys, they will take these two contracts.

#7 heypartner, Jun 28, 2001

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Hakeem will likely get (if he returns) $13 million over two years with the second year as a team option.

Could a cap expert analyze this one for us? Would giving Hakeem $5.5, Taylor $5 and Norris $1.5 (starting salaries for Taylor and Norris) be feasible? Do we have that kind of cap room once we sign Griffin?

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Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau

#8 Jeff, Jun 28, 2001
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heyp: From what I've heard, Mo Tay is not going to take the veteren's exception for two years. He loves Houston but he is expecting more than $2 - $4 million. All he has to do is look at Anderson to see what can happen by singing in hopes of collecting a big payday later.

One thing on our side is that Griffin and Taylor have the same agent: David Falk. Wait, maybe that's not such a great thing.

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Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau

#9 Jeff, Jun 28, 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Space Ghost:
Bzzzz Hakeem is washed up! Sure, he can have his few good games, but he won't last a playoff run. Unless he is here to teach, let his ass go and get someone that we will need for the future.

Im for Marc Jackson.

</font>
Click to expand...

I guess I forgot this scenario:

3. Sign Mo' to a Middle Class right away, and then let Dream go to Free Agent to get him off the books....would you do that? How much cap room is created? Not enough for Webber, but maybe Davis?

Still the question is, spend now on our free agents to stabilize chemistry, give Dream some FUN! and maximize cap room next summer.

#10 heypartner, Jun 28, 2001
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Jeff, the Middle Class exception is looking like it will be $4.5M. Many free agents in Mo's position will defer the payday to the day they can max out on Full Bird rights.

Mo' actually makes more money by awaiting Full Bird rights than giving him $5m as you suggest. He would have to get $7m to Dreams $4-5m by your scenario to make more money over time. Personally, I don't think Dream signs for that, so I think your scenario is less likely, than my one yr $10m for Dream.

Comparing that to Shandon is not the same. The Middle Class exception jumped substantially this year.

as for the salary cap question you have. There is a dispute on the internet regarding our salary cap position if we renounce Dream. We can get to around $13-14m by different calculations. So yes, we can afford the $11.5 you mention.

Your numbers and my numbers are pretty equal regarding paying Mo. This is not Mo continuing to be seriously underpaid.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 28, 2001).]

#11 heypartner, Jun 28, 2001
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Here is what we are paying for next this coming offseason if we renounce everyone but Mooch, and assume Rogers has a team option as reported. (Numbers mainly from realgm, if anyone has conflicting data, please say so).

Francis/Mooch
Mobley/Morris
Griffin/Walt/Langhi
Thomas
Cato/Collier

Thomas- 0.946920
Francis- 3.47352
Mobley- 4.41288
Langhi- 0.46585
Cato- 6.0
Maloney- 2.54375
Moochie- 0.68055
Collier- 1.280067
Walt- 5.0
Morris- 0.0 (non guaranteed)
Griffin-1.34072 (80% of scale, will most likely go to 120% when signed)
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26.144257 million. Assumed cap of 42 mill equals 15.855743 mill in cap space

So you could sign Hakeem to a nice 7 mill contract, and have 8.8 mill left to resign Mo, and then maybe acquire a backup 4/5 like Outlaw or Jerome Williams, then sign Mooch to early bird.

The problem with waiting for next year, is that while the cap goes up and Hakeem and Walt go away, is that you'll have Moochie either on his early bird at as much as 4 mill, Mo at around 5-6 mill if not more, Griffin will be counted at 120% of the scale in year 2 rather than year 1, Morris counting against the cap, Cato going up, and then you have Langhi as a free agent.

Best case scenario if we were to hold over our cap room, is to not renounce Hakeem, resign Mo to a 2 year contract, and ask Mooch to accept the 1 mill exception this year, while we have his LBR next summer.

Then, salary wise, this is what we'll be looking at (real gm numbers, and Coon FAQ for min. numbers)- Francis and Collier have team options

Francis 4.383582
Maloney 2.54375
Mobley 4.9032
Thomas 1.557683
Cato 6.6
**Moochie
**Taylor
Collier 1.376072
Griffin 2.16192
Langhi .605605 (unrenounced)
Morris .349458
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24.48127+ Moochie and Mo (somewhere between 7 and 11 mill?). The cap will likely go up, but that's impossible to predict. You're left with at least 10 mill to play with IMO.

**-Variables

If you manage to subtract Cato, youre salaries total 17.88127+Moochie and Mo.

If Mo signs a 2 year deal with a base of 4.5 mill, add 4.95 for him.

Francis/Moochie
Mobley/Langhi
Griffin/Morris
Mo/KT
[Cato?]/Collier

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"I think alot of people find Cato's game to be very offensive." -aelliott, comparing the offensive skills of Kelvin Cato and Michael Olowokandi

[This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 01, 2001).]

#12 NIKEstrad, Jun 28, 2001
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Thanks NIKE and HeyP for the info. I didn't realize the veteran exception was that much. If nothing else, as Rudy said, "It is going to be an interesting summer."

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Things do not change; we change. - Henry David Thoreau

#13 Jeff, Jun 28, 2001

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If we don't Renounce Hakeem but sign him to
a smaller contract .. .do we lose our exceptions and gain the Cap space?

Rocket River

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#14 Rocket River, Jun 28, 2001
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So if we defer Hakeem, who are we gonna sign next year for the inside?

If you have a chance for Webber, go for it.

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"Chucky who? I thought we were talking about basketball?" Charles Barkley

#15 Colby, Jun 28, 2001
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NIKE, so your numbers assume a renouncement of Rogers, otherwise it is like $12m, right?

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I'm so tender after being fried in Crisco. ChrisPee and Yummy!

#16 ChrisPee, Jun 28, 2001
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I like Allan Houston if we don't land Webber for a few reasons.

#1) There is no way I would give Mo Taylor anything remotely close to what he's going to want. Choosing between Houston and Taylor, I'll take Houston every time.

#2) I don't see the Rockets going far into the playoffs with Mobley as a starting shooting guard. He's a sixth man at best on a championship caliber team.

#3) Houston can shoot lights out. Outside of Bullard we have no legit established shooters. He's a big threat on the perimeter and he can take heat off of Francis and Cat.

#4) Houston has playoff and NBA Finals experience. Mo Taylor's only playoff experience is watching it on television.

#5) We need bangers inside (a la Dale Davis, Tyrone Hill), not pansy mid-range jump shooting power forwards who can't rebound and want mega bucks.

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First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!

[This message has been edited by Timing (edited June 28, 2001).]

#17 Timing, Jun 28, 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rocket River:
If we don't Renounce Hakeem but sign him to
a smaller contract .. .do we lose our exceptions and gain the Cap space?

Rocket River

</font>
Click to expand...

It is merely a mathematically computation. By signing Dream to a smaller contract, if we are then below the cap by the sum of our exceptions, we lose them for a year. These are:

Middle Class Exception = $4.5m (exact amt to be formalized later)
Drew's Trade Exception = $1.something
$1m exception = $1.3m

So roughly $7m. If we go below that amount, we can only sign Mo with cap room, which means we'll have no exceptions to offer Mark Jackson and such.

#18 ChrisPee, Jun 28, 2001

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HP, can Mo get his Bird rights after signing 2 exception conracts?

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Anger is a weed. Hate is a tree.

#19 RocketsPimp, Jun 28, 2001
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ONLY THING I worry about Allan Houston
DEFENSE? Will he be a worse liability
than Walt? Is his + on Offense better
than Shandon's + Defense?

Rocket River

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#20 Rocket River, Jun 28, 2001

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