1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Van Gundy has taken away our offense... and given us nothing in return

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by haven, Apr 28, 2004.

Tags:
Page 1 of 5
  1. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    I hated our offense last year. It was ugly. It was inefficient. I'd still rather have it than whatever half-assed, ill-planned, ugly hybrid we have right now.

    If you're going to play inside-out, freaking load the perimeter with bombers, get a careful-but-not-stellar PG, and let Yao try and the 3 point shooters try to win.

    If you want penetration... let Francis try to be himself.

    Instead, we've got this ugly piece of **** in which nobody really knows his role... but half a dozen players screw up at different points. There's no priority, no order... no "Man..." so it's all disorganized crap with people going their own way.

    Imagine someone watching who knew nothing about the Rockets, who couldn't hear the commentary. Who would he think "The Man" was? He might think it Francis... or Yao... or Mobley... or Jackson... or Taylor. There's no strategy. There's no repetition to create elite play.

    I expected to lsoe this series. But I expected that our players would at least be allowed to lose on their own merits (or lack of them). I hate to say it - but this game has been lost because of a lack of identity in the offense. Maybe the other two we lost because of our players - but in this one, the coach double dribbled.
     
    #1 haven, Apr 28, 2004
  2. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    22,025
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    i don't have time to read the post quite yet (need to soak in the misery a little more and watch the last few minutes) but i agree and i'm glad there's a thread titled this on the board.


    ok read it and agree.
     
    #2 francis 4 prez, Apr 28, 2004
  3. madmonkey37

    madmonkey37 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,499
    Likes Received:
    52
    .

    This team is too turnover prone. Thats the bottom line. How many games have we lost to turnovers or games that made you nervous because we should have a blowout win instead of a close game. The offense doesnt look so bad when we arnt turning it over. This year has been a transition year, the turnovers probably come from the more passing jvg wants when most of our players were use to iso ball.
     
    #3 madmonkey37, Apr 28, 2004
  4. edc

    edc Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    41
    This is why I said they should've only given JVG a two (or 2 + option) contract. The way things are right now, we are stuck with him, and most likely Francis gets traded for a load of role players, and the promise of a great team blows to dust (see Rockets, Houston - 1989)
     
    #4 edc, Apr 28, 2004
  5. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 1999
    Messages:
    22,950
    Likes Received:
    33,697
    haven - the big question I would raise from that though is how did the offense change from the regular season to the postseason? It really didn't, imo. This is the same inconsistent, inefficient team.

    People will again believe I'm singling out Francis, and maybe I am, but a perfect example is that 3-on-1 fast break where Francis didn't dish to a wide open Jim Jackson. He took it on his own and got the foul. Do we really think Van Gundy instilled that in to Steve? Now Francis made both free throws, but he took the 60% route instead of the 95% route. Inefficient. That is this team's offense. Poor passing, poor decision makers, high turnover rate, inconsistent shooters.

    Van Gundy isn't making the most of his personnel on the offensive end, but he needs better-fits to run what he wants to accomplish.
     
    #5 Clutch, Apr 28, 2004
  6. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    Except... we're not in transition. To be in transition, you have to be "becoming" something. We're not.

    We still play one-on-one ball far too much. And the turnovers happen when one player can't get a shot... so gives it to another.

    JVG is a great freaking defensive coach. The only way the Lakers seem to score is either on great shots... or role players rising above their seeming abilities... but the offense is a series of individual plays... that lead to more individual plays. There's no unity, as you see with other teams.
     
    #6 haven, Apr 28, 2004
  7. eyeagainst

    eyeagainst Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well i've always said.....Rudy T's Offense beat JVG/PatRileys Defense. Defense hardly wins Championships, you gotta score to win.
     
    #7 eyeagainst, Apr 28, 2004
  8. Tyree

    Tyree Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2003
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    3
    on that break, not trying to be picky but it was 2 on 1...he probably shouldve given it to JJ but it worked out fine since he went to the line...i just dont know what to think anymore about Francis really, i love the guy but our team doesnt have good chemistry.
     
    #8 Tyree, Apr 28, 2004
  9. sup123

    sup123 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,989
    Likes Received:
    0
    well at least we know their will be major changes cause of one reason. TURNOVERS. This team must have the crapiest passers in the history of the nba.
     
    #9 sup123, Apr 28, 2004
  10. AlexVanderpool

    AlexVanderpool Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    My vote is for Kirk Hinrich.
     
    #10 AlexVanderpool, Apr 28, 2004
  11. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,795
    Likes Received:
    17,167
    You still need the right players to execute an offense... let Van Gundy build a team that can do that, with somewhat decent NBA players.

    Right now, we have Mark Jackson, Scott Padgett and Clarence Weatherspoon who have been some of our best players off the bench.

    These guys wouldn't get minutes on lottery teams this year.

    We never had enough talent to win a championship this year... a combination of experience, and bringing in role players with mroe talent should improve that.

    And we need a real Power Forward....
     
    #11 Nick, Apr 28, 2004
  12. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    Or how about the play in which either Mobley or JJ (don't remember which) failed to pass to an unguarded Yao under the basket... and took a 20 foot guarded jump shot.

    Perhaps the offense didn't change - but I do think this game was the archetypal illustration of what was wrong.

    If you think you're going to win the penetration... let Francis try to break down the Lakers. There were possessions where that happened... but more often than not, Francis was not the focal point.

    On the other hand, if you think like me (and you as well, I believe)... and think that the team needs to play inside-out... freaking pound the ball every play. At an absolute minimum... Yao's almost always going to get you an open 3.

    The team did neither. Nobody was "the man" when it came time to deliver... and I think the team suffered as a result.

    Perhaps this was true in the regular season as well. But never was an individual loss quite this disheartening or meaningful.
     
    #12 haven, Apr 28, 2004
  13. RocketManJosh

    RocketManJosh Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Messages:
    5,881
    Likes Received:
    726
    Yeah that was the perfect example of our problems tonight :rolleyes: The Rockets even got two points there.

    You don't think it had anything to do with the complete and utter lack of spacing on the offensive end? ... It was terrible.
     
    #13 RocketManJosh, Apr 28, 2004
  14. newmemo1

    newmemo1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Problems?

    Yao never pass any chance to pass
    Others rarely pass any chance to shoot.

    When the pass was made, the timing 's off.


    Boki was open a couple of times, Cat still chose the tough jumper
    I really hope we are active in the offseason:

    JVG is absolutely a top Coach, but he needs to get a couple of players with a good blend of talent and sense of team game.
     
    #14 newmemo1, Apr 28, 2004
  15. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 1999
    Messages:
    22,950
    Likes Received:
    33,697
    Wow, thanks for summing up the free throw points that I said he made and enlightening me with the grand total of 2! I change my mind then - Steve Francis made the right decision!!!
     
    #15 Clutch, Apr 28, 2004
  16. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    128,826
    Likes Received:
    39,212
    It was 3 on 1 Mobley was trailing, he could have dumped it off to him too.

    Francis is a JOKE as a PG, other teams know he is not a threat on the fast break so they simply ignore the Rocket without the ball.

    DD
     
    #16 DaDakota, Apr 29, 2004
  17. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    22,025
    Likes Received:
    4,552

    spacing and movement. rudy never had much movement but jvg never has anyone moving ever when people run the pick and roll or anything that might get the defense off balance. hence, whoever has the ball never seems to have anyone to give it to except the guy that just set the picks (who always goes back for the shot instead of rolling) and sometimes not even then with our spacing and angles we create. it doesn't have to be the sacramento offense b/c, well, that's a well-oiled machine you're not going to duplicate, but someone should move.

    jvg did far less with this talent than he should've. fit? he needs people that fit better? well, hell, we all do. we need more talent? ok, so if we have more talent and it all fits and we succeed, what did jvg do? jvg's job was to get something out of the team he had, not try to do stuff it was ill-suited to accomplish.

    we had a better small forward and an improved yao and had a significantly, but not drastically, worse offense. amazing.

    like haven said, it's just an amalgamation of each guy trying to do something and hoping it works.

    why were there so many times yao would be out and we would still be feeding the post? shouldn't that be the guards time? why did we pound yao in the post so much early to little effect? why did we even go to yao as much as we did in this series? he was clearly struggling to get anything resembling a good look against shaq and his offense hurt us. why was anyone who forced a pass to cato of all people not immediately pulled?

    WHY WERE TURNOVERS NEVER SOLVED!! steve francis i don't believe had any more turnovers this year than last so this isn't even something you can put on him. we slowed the game down and still turned it over more. look at tape and identify trouble situations and work like hell to stay out of those. don't just keep doing it over and over.

    and would people stop with "what jvg's trying to accomplish." because all it ever is some BS obvious thing like go inside-out or be discipline. if it was easy everyone would do it. the coach is supposed to get you to that point, not just say that's where to go.

    that's all i can complain about right now.
     
    #17 francis 4 prez, Apr 29, 2004
  18. CriscoKidd

    CriscoKidd Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 1999
    Messages:
    9,303
    Likes Received:
    546
    As well you should.

    After 5 years you should know by now that whatever stiffs that are running up the court with our guards are simply decoys.
     
    #18 CriscoKidd, Apr 29, 2004
  19. haven

    haven Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 1999
    Messages:
    7,945
    Likes Received:
    14
    What the hell is he trying to accomplish?

    It's a cliche for a coach to state the objectives, game after game - and then the team ignore them entirely. Yet, after this entire year, do you have any ****ing clue what JVG wants this team to be like?

    We know JVG wants the team to turn the ball over yet. Well woo ****ing who. Does anybody who supports the Rockets not want this?

    That's like wanting to score more, concede fewer less, or get more wins. Bleh.
     
    #19 haven, Apr 29, 2004
  20. HAYJON02

    HAYJON02 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,777
    Likes Received:
    278
    Yeah.............. we SO did not play better D this year. Get off this. You'll be singing his praises when T-Mac is playing heavy D on Kobe. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
    #20 HAYJON02, Apr 29, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 5

Share This Page

Style
ClutchFans Dark

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Rockets Content

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now