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US Resists Democracy in Iraq

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Dec 4, 2003.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    This reflects poorly on another of the Bush's admin's claims about why we invaded Iraq-- the love of democracy in Iraqi angle.

    Recent polls show that 71% of Americans believe the Iraq invasion has not made us more safe from terrorism and 80% believe that we should let Iraq choose its own government even if it is unfriendly to the US.
    See.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-12-03-iraq-poll_x.htm

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    U.S. Resistance to Direct Vote Galvanizes Iraq's Shiite Clerics
    By Alissa J. Rubin
    Times Staff Writer
    December 3, 2003

    NAJAF, Iraq — With a suddenness that seems to have caught American officials by surprise, Shiite Muslim clerics who for decades ministered in the quiet obscurity of the back streets of this holy city are now driving key decisions about the future governance of the nation.

    The immediate focal point is a showdown with the American-led coalition over the process for transferring sovereignty to an Iraqi government.

    Shiite religious parties, with the backing of the most senior cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, say they favor direct elections for a transitional government rather than the American-backed proposal to use provincial caucuses for selecting delegates to a national assembly.

    But beyond this debate, far broader political forces are at work. At stake is the role religious Shiite parties will play in Iraq for the foreseeable future.

    The Shiite community, which was brutally persecuted by Saddam Hussein and his Sunni Muslim-dominated Baath Party, would likely benefit from swift direct elections because Shiites make up about 60% of Iraq's population and their religious parties are, at this point, the most organized political force in the country.

    But some Bush administration officials fear that if Shiite fundamentalists were to win at the polls, they would advance an anti-Western agenda with a theocratic bent reminiscent of Iran rather than build a relatively moderate democracy that protects the basic rights of all Iraqis, including women and minorities.

    The extent to which Shiite clerics end up with a controlling influence after the foreign coalition leaves — and the role of Koranic law in the nation's constitution — might well depend on how Americans handle the current challenge from Shiite leaders.

    "Absolutely this is a delicate moment," said a senior administration official who is knowledgeable about Iraq policy. "Do we throw the dice and say, 'This is a political issue, and we're not going to let [Sistani] dictate to us'? Will he be willing to deal or not? It's a turning point."

    Observers here note that American opposition to the religious Shiites' agenda puts the U.S. in the odd position of resisting what is arguably the most democratic of processes: a free election. They also worry that the Americans have not carefully considered the worst-case scenarios.

    "If the Shiites do not get what they are asking for and Sistani issues a [religious order] forbidding people to vote, no Shiite will participate in the political process," said Jabber Habib, a Baghdad University political science professor. "I don't think that will happen, but the high Shiite clerics have great power if they want to use it."

    Three factors seem to have pushed Shiite religious leaders into their current disagreement with the coalition.

    First, the conservative clerics are looking ahead to an uncertain political future if the economy improves and the country becomes more Westernized. Consequently, they want direct elections well before drafters of a national constitution are due to be selected, more than a year from now.

    Second, some Shiite leaders appear to doubt that the United States has their interests at heart. That concern has been exacerbated, the clerics say, by poor communication between the parties.

    Senior members of the coalition dispute that view, insisting that there is regular communication with religious Shiites. A senior staffer noted Tuesday that civilian administrator L. Paul Bremer III had met hours earlier with cleric Abdelaziz Hakim, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council who also leads the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. However, coalition officials in the provinces say it has been difficult to maintain regular communication.

    The third factor is that neighboring Iran, the largest Shiite nation in the world, seems to be pushing a number of Shiite leaders in Iraq to exercise greater political power more quickly.

    Iraq's Shiite population encompasses a vast religious spectrum — some are secular, some religiously observant and some in-between. But almost all share a pride in the scholarship and stature of the grand ayatollahs of Najaf, who historically have been rivaled only by those in the Iranian city of Qom.

    That pride has swelled in the months since Hussein's overthrow, as even the most secular Shiites expressed admiration for the survival of members of the Shiite religious parties, many freshly returned from exile, and for senior clergy who had remained in Iraq despite the repression of Hussein's rule.

    By framing the issue as whether Americans intend to honor the wishes of the Shiite majority, Shiite clerics appear to be capitalizing on the sense of shared identity.

    Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, a Kurd who attends many Governing Council meetings and met with Sistani in Najaf this year, warned that issues related to the Shiites' stature would resonate among the majority. "When it comes to these issues, the Shiites have solidarity, regardless of whether they are religious or secular," he said.

    Observers believe that the sense of solidarity will ebb if reconstruction efforts succeed.

    "The religious parties are afraid that in a year or two, the standard of living will increase and prosperity will increase and the people will not go for these religious parties," said Habib, the professor.

    The three best-known Shiite parties are the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the Islamic Dawa Party and a loose group of clerics around Muqtader Sadr, a radical young cleric whose father and cousin defied Hussein's regime and were assassinated for their stance.

    None of these groups openly discuss the extent to which each would like religious law to dominate Iraq, but it is an implicit theme in their recent pronouncements on the political process. It is also a theme that frightens many secular Iraqis.

    All of the Shiite religious parties have armed followers. But none is as organized as the SCIRI-affiliated militia, which the Americans have been able to only nominally disarm.

    Western observers believe that the SCIRI, the dominant political force in Najaf, is trying to expand its power as rapidly as possible. Dawa controls much of the southern city of Nasiriyah, and Sadr holds sway over multitudes in the sprawling Baghdad slum known as Sadr City. Sistani, the most widely revered Shiite cleric in Iraq, has called for an election of the transitional legislature, which would take office by July. The cleric, who is not aligned with any party, is also displeased that the unelected Governing Council, rather than an elected body, will write the interim law for running Iraq that is due to be completed by March, said a senior Iraqi official who met with the cleric.

    During Friday's prayers in Najaf, preacher Sadruddin Qubanchi, a high-ranking SCIRI official, accused the Americans and the Governing Council of deception in the way they have presented the process of choosing the transitional legislature.

    "It is not going to be done through elections, but through appointments. They are cheating the marja," said Qubanchi, referring to the five most senior clerics who interpret Shiite teachings.

    The Shiite parties' determination to consolidate political influence has caused the groups to deny that serious problems could result from early elections.

    Coalition officials and secular members of the Governing Council argue that the country is too unstable for fair elections to be held soon because of the risk of attacks on voters and candidates by Hussein loyalists.

    Ayatollah Mohammed Ali Yaccoubi, a supporter of Sistani, counters that "the security issue is just an excuse for not holding elections."

    "There are several stable provinces, the unstable points are only between 10% and 20%," he said in an interview. "You may not have 100% participation. But a province without elections can say, 'These are our delegates to the legislature,' and pick some."

    Privately, two prominent Shiites said that considering that tens of thousands of Shiites were slaughtered by Hussein, any further casualties incurred for the sake of elections in which Shiite parties are assured of doing well would be a small price to pay.

    American officials were apparently unsure how to encourage moderate Shiite clerics and discourage the fundamentalists who might lean toward Iran. The result was that they cast their lot with secular Shiite exiles such as Ahmad Chalabi and Iyad Allawi, who lead parties that have only recently begun to put down real roots in Iraq.

    Sistani, who met with U.N. envoy Sergio Vieira de Mello before his death, refuses to meet with Bremer. Although Bremer has reached out to some of the moderates, especially in Baghdad, he has few links to the powerful senior clerics in Najaf.

    Similarly, there has been no effort on the part of the U.S.-led coalition to talk directly to Sadr. But the coalition makes no apology for that omission. "We absolutely don't want to meet with Muqtader al Sadr. He's accused of some very serious crimes — he's been a force for unrest and strife," an official said.

    However, shunning Sadr is seen by the Najaf authorities as a slight to an important clerical family, even though in the main they do not like or trust Sadr, who is viewed by many as a hothead who lacks his relatives' Islamic scholarship.

    "The Americans should deal with all symbols of the Iraqi people equally," said Yaccoubi, the Sistani supporter.

    Ayatollah Ishaq Fayed, one of the five senior clergy in Najaf, harbors further frustrations. Speaking on his behalf, Sheik Ali Rubaie, who runs Fayed's office, said hundreds of worshipers have come to senior clerics for help after confrontations with the American military.

    "We suggested that there should be an American decision maker we could talk to in order to solve the problems, so Iraqis will realize these are friendly troops and not occupiers, but this has not happened. So we have stopped communication with them," Rubaie said.

    The military officers who spoke with Rubaie are no longer in Najaf, but a coalition official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the failure to appoint such a person was "probably an oversight."

    The Americans counted on Shiite support for their occupation, but it appears that many Shiites view the deposing of Hussein as little more than payment of a long-overdue debt.

    After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, the Shiites, urged on by the Americans, held off Hussein's forces and ousted the Baathists from several southern strongholds. Triumph turned to tragedy when the U.S. left them to fight alone. Hussein's troops killed tens of thousands, burying them in mass graves.

    At a recent book fair in Najaf, a man in a business suit pored over a table of tomes dedicated to the uprising. Eyeing one with a cover photograph of teenage boys marching through Nasiriyah with AK-47s in their hands, he said in English: "They are my son's age. You know who is responsible for their deaths? George Bush, the father."

    It is also in places like this book fair, the first one in this city in 35 years, that the subtle influence of Iran becomes obvious.

    The fair was opened by the Iranian cleric Mohammed Ali Taskhiri, who spoke on behalf of Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Taskhiri called for an "Islamic constitution," adding, almost as an admonishment, "The Shiite leaders know their responsibilities."

    Iran's links to southern Iraq are complex — a combination of family ties, religious fraternity and spilled blood.

    Among the fair's best-attended exhibits was a set of tables where visitors could write a letter to Iran's late supreme leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. Flocks of men gathered to fill out a piece of paper and hand it to a cleric standing nearby.

    "It would be good to have a leader like Ayatollah Khomeini. He delivered Iran from darkness to light," said Saeed Kamal Khaderi, referring to the spiritual force behind Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution. Khaderi, 29, is an agricultural engineer who now works in an air-conditioning repair shop to make ends meet.

    "I would prefer a cleric as a leader," he added in a wistful tone. "They are always on the right side."

    link
     
  2. Lil

    Lil Member

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    democracy per se is not a holy mantra. the masses has to be protected from itself, from the "tyranny of the majority" to borrow the age-old adage.

    this would probably include a constitutional bill of rights of some sort, as well as various forms of checks and balances. implemented a functioning democracy from scratch, without institutional foundations, a tradition of civic awareness, and without prevalent education/prosperity (or more important, common sense), is always risky business.

    theocracies are often chosen and supported by the people, but without these guarantees and checks, they usually result in loss of freedom for dissenters, and in the worst case, oppression and authoritarianism. i think we as americans have a responsibility to prevent that.

    that being said, i do believe the us should strive to implement as democratic a govt as possible. the more we lean towards representative govt, i think the more room there is for corruption.
     
  3. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    Shouldn't the citizens of that country be the ones to decide the manner in which they protect themselves from tyranny of a majority? The U.S. certainly didn't let any other nation tell us how to protect our citizens from the tyanny of a majority when we were formed.

    We can advise and presnt evidence on why a democracy should be run a certain way, but to dictate to the people of a nation we were supposed to free, the type of govt. they need to have, we are the ones who are being authoritarian and dictatorial.
     
  4. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Apply your logic and patience to China also.
     
  5. Lil

    Lil Member

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    don't make me laugh.

    if the communist party does 1/100 of what america is doing to build real democracy in iraq, you should be already thanking your stars. i see no attempt WHATSOEVER by china at building democratic institutions (like a free press and mass media, like independent, representative regional govts, like political parties, like political interest groups, like independent labor unions, like an independent academia capable of political dissent, like independent religious institutions, etc. etc. etc. and the list goes on and on.)

    when china STARTS TO BUILD these institutions, instead of suppressing them at every turn, then i will be more patient. when china STARTS TO TEACH their people to recognise and desire true democracy (instead of worshipping the one "great" communist party), then i will be more patient.

    it's like telling me to wait patiently at a bus stop, when the buses have never left the station... wait, when the buses have never even been built...
     
  6. Lil

    Lil Member

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    i think this is a fundamental problem we'll encounter. the US is far more advanced in terms of protecting the rights of ethnic minorities, religious dissenters, political dissenters, and women, than the much of the world. this is particularly true when compared to theocracies, which iraq is in danger of becoming.

    as americans, we have a responsibility to ensure that these ideals/rights are protected all over the world, whenever we have a chance. and iraq, i think, represents a excellent chance. authoritarian? yes. dictatorial? yes. but sometimes freedom needs to be force-fed to people.

    hell, back in the days, many african-american slaves were too scared to be freed too, if i remember correctly...
     
  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Wow, Lil must be even older than Dr. of Dunk! ;)
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Member

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    that being said, i do believe the us should strive to implement as democratic a govt as possible. the more we lean towards representative govt, i think the more room there is for corruption.

    lil, is there a mistake here? What is the connection between representative government and corruption?
     
  9. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Michecon, I think you and lil, both have points I agree with.

    Certainly we should not use the basically false excuse of being democracies lovers as the main thrust of our policies toward China. Don't get me wrong we prefer democracies, but if it comes in the way of making $$$, the Bush types could care less about democracy.

    On the otherhand, don't you think China should have some of the more democratic parties and procedures and freedom of speech that lil mentions?

    If so how and when do you see this happening in China?
     
  10. Lil

    Lil Member

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    oops... that came across kinda weird... :D
     
  11. Lil

    Lil Member

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    i think representative govt by nature is inherently elitist, i.e. we need people who know better to represent us and make decisions for us. and when power is concentrated in the hands of an elite few, corruption is a natural result.

    as opposed to say, pure democracy, where decisions are made through referendums, etc.
     
  12. Panda

    Panda Member

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    Since when Hong Kong isn't part of China?:confused:
     
  13. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    :eek:


    Am I not the only one who found this a little disturbing???
     
  14. Panda

    Panda Member

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    I concur. People should have the right to define their freedom. They may be wrong at times, but freedom is not freedom when it's forced upon. Some people pretending to be freedom defenders usually ignore the essence of freedom in order to suit their purposes.
     
  15. FranchiseBlade

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    And force feeding people something through authoritarian and dictatorial means will make them appreciate democracy more?

    Or would it make them resent democracy and the govt. that pushed it down their throats at the barrel of a gun?

    It is far better to show by example the benefits of democracy, then to order it in place at the bayonet.
     
  16. Lil

    Lil Member

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    case in point:

    ask any starving north korean whether they support Kim Jong-Il. i bet you 90% of them would tell you they'd fight and DIE for him.

    yet ask yourself this question, if given the chance, should we free them?

    freedom needs to be force-fed sometimes. because people sometimes are just too stupid for their own good (or made that way through indoctrination, brainwashing, religion, etc. etc....).
     
  17. Panda

    Panda Member

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    If they are with a bad guy, why should you free them? Will you free OBL's followers? Lunatics should be locked up and rehabilitated instead of letting loose and run free.

    I can see what happens with your force feeding freedom rationale, I heard that pro-reunification Taiwanese are being called "traitors", who "sell out Taiwan to China", "give up freedom for dictatorship" etc... by the Taiwan seperatists. Is that an example of force feeding freedom to those who don't agree with you?
     
  18. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    The title of the thread is pretty misleading. Favoring regional representation for a National Assembly is hardly anti-democratic. As has been pointed out, the REASON they are supporting that model is to keep the majority from persecuting the minority.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    but how practical is that in a nation of uneducated masses? how practical is it in a nation where everyone is educated, but is busting their ass to make a living?

    the masses can be swayed to violate their own constitution...representative government is a safeguard from the tyranny of the majority you talked about earlier.
     
  20. michecon

    michecon Member

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    glynch:

    Democracy in China, though may be laughable for those out of touch and lack of observing eyes, is (slowly) happenning, and will happen. A lot of ground work and progress has been made especially in the recent year, wherein economic progress dictates people has more incentives to be involved in public policy makings and more power in participating.

    Although this is not the place to write a length papers in the interwine of economic progress and development in democtatic power, I would like to point out some facts.

    In the rural area, experiments in directly electing the lower-ranked officials who are more responsible for the daily decision on people's wellbeing has been going well. There are also cases where officials are stripped of power by people when they make blunders or corrupt. In the cities like Shanghai, civilian forums has been set up, where representitives of people will have saying the the city policies towards things like road building and residential renevation. These debates are often carried on TV. Granted, these opinions don't have the overruling power on surface, but they make people more aware and participate in the decision make progress and often do influent decisions. Throughout China, local PEOPLE's CONGRESS, which used to be just a rubber stamp for the party needs, has been given more power. You can find cases where government decisions being overruled by the congress. Even on the highest national level, you will find important issues like a high-ranked offical nominee no longer have a unanimous "yes" vote. Yes, the congress is still a sideshow, especially in core personnel decisions on high levels, but it's having a much bigger impact especially on lower levels.

    China has made stride in freedom of speech. Not only you can say whatever you want to say nowadays, but also in public media and representation of dissent opinions. This year, Dan Wei (Units) are no longer required to subscibe to the Party's official newspaper. Most of the local party newspaper will die soon unless they can morpheus and be competitive on the market. As to intelectual dissents, this is on longer China in 1989. You can find plenty of private institutes who have different visions of policies. The unions are much more independent than before. They simply can not be. Since the economic reform, the unions are often find themselves in differnt trenches than the party. Even western observers sense something differnt when Hu Jingtao speak of need of democracy on media, rather then simply dismiss it as justifying for party rule.

    A las, China can certainly do better. But China is making ground laying progresses, namely establishing the rule of law (not the rule of party) and making people participating public life (in now still limited venues).

    I have my own views of how democracy and role of CCP will morpheus over time. I won't say it here. But, I will say this: democracy is inevitable with the privatization of the economy, China just want to find its own path, on her own pace.

    As to the disscusion of Iraq, let's not forget the U.S. makes the choice not because that's best of the Iraqies interests, but for the U.S. interest.
     

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