Interesting stuff. <i>Israel rejects U.S. rebuke JERUSALEM (CNN) --Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has rejected a rebuke from the U.S. demanding that Israeli troops withdraw from six West Bank towns. In a statement on Tuesday, the prime minister's office said that the assassination last week of Cabinet Minister Rehavam Ze'evi had "crossed a red line." "The assassination of Minister Rehavam Ze'evi crossed a red line and Israel, like all democratic countries, is realizing its rights to self-defense and to protect the lives of its citizens," the statement said. Israeli officials said their tanks and troops would not withdraw until their mission was over and Palestinian Authority Leader Yasser Arafat had extradited Ze'evi's killers. Sharon's office said Israel does not want to permanently reoccupy Palestinian territory. On Monday, U.S. State Department spokesman Phil Reeker read a harshly worded statement saying: "Israel Defense Forces should be withdrawn immediately from all Palestinian controlled areas and no further such incursions should be made." During a tour of northern Israel, Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the U.S. demand was "out of line." The U.S. demand and the Israeli response came as Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres was set to meet with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in Washington. In an interview with CNN, Peres said if the Palestinian Authority arrests the killers of Ze'evi and turns them over Israel will withdraw its tanks and troops. He said the U.S. made demands of both the Israelis and the Palestinians and he urged Arafat to act. "We want the murderers handed over. We and they know exactly who they are. They (the Palestinian Authority) have to take responsbility. They must also exercise law and order," said Peres. The U.S. has been pressing both Arafat and Sharon to make progress on resuming peace negotiations, fearing a flare-up in the Middle East will only weaken the coalition the U.S. has assembled against terror mastermind Osama bin Laden. Political observers in Jerusalem said despite sending envoys to Washington, Sharon had failed to convey to the U.S. that Israel feels that it, too, is under terror attack and must move to protect its citizens. Israeli tanks and troops have moved into Palestinian controlled areas around Beit Jala, Bethlehem, Qalqilya, Jenin, Nablus, and Ramallah. Sharon has demanded that Arafat arrest and turn over the killers of Ze'evi or be treated as an organization that harbors terrorists. In Jerusalem Monday night, a crowd estimated by Israel Radio to number around 80,000 marched in support of a hard line against Arafat and against terrorism. Marchers carried placards depicting Arafat and bin Laden calling them the "Twins of Terror." But there was opposition from the Labor Party members of Sharon's government who threatened to quit if the Israeli offensive is open-ended. In recent days, the Palestinian Authority has outlawed the military wing of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and arrested more than two dozens of its members. However, Palestinian officials have rejected Israel's call for the PA to turn over Ze'evi's killers.</i>
For some odd reason I just don't blame them (the Israelis). We are out of line for asking them to withdraw in the middle of a intifada. Why not just ask them to shoot themselves... I suspect they're probably tired of seeing school buses, pizzerias, and discos get blown up.
why does that not surprise me, treeman? Since even you recognize your bias against Arabs as you pointed out in another thread, it should come as no shock to anyone.
Maybe we should bomb Israel until they get back on their own turf. Then, we cut off their funding. Then, we cut off our support. Then, maybe they will withdraw? eh? Stupid Sharon is trying to equate his fight to our fight against terrorism. It is not the same!!! They are supposed to be working on a peace process over there....not trying to destroy Palestinians and Arafat. We, on the other hand, are trying to destroy Bin Laden, his network, and those who support them. Sharon is doing a pretty damn good job of disrupting our coalition which includes Arab countries. He better lay low....all this over one man who was resigning from his government and didn't support Sharon's policies. Arafat, on the other hand, needs to bring the perpetrators to justice. But, the Israelis have been sniping out Palestinians as well. No....really now...what do you suppose we are to do if he doesn't withdraw? Still support him? Cut back support both militarily and financially? Threaten them? Terrible timing. Surf
Yeah, I probably came off as racist in that thread. Actually, I couldn't care less what race they are, but they are a part of a hostile culture, and that's what bugs me. I have no problem with Americans of Arab descent. So I guess you could call me a 'culturist'... They hate our guts, and they will hate our guts no matter what we do because they have been trained to hate our guts. Do you still deny that?
The Bush administration has been very agressive in pursuing the Powell doctrine of working with the world community as a whole rather than just to further our interests. The US is finally beginning to see that the Isreal/Palestine issue is the key issue to peace in the middle east and the derailing of terrorism. Israel's actions are directly contrary to that and are putting the US in a very awkward situation. Israel has, from the beginning, tried to exploit September 11th for their own gains. I have read that, in some cases, our relationships currently are better with some moderate Arab states than they are with Israel. Sharon's administration and Bush's don't get along well either, which doesn't help. Ultimately, Israel may be the lynch pin in the whole operation. If they find a way to sort through the Palestinian issue peacefully, many of the significant world issues could be solved. If they don't and try to pit themselves against Arab nations and Islam hoping for US support in their efforts, they may get the opposite response.
Why are the Israelis the only ones who aren't pretending that they're not at war with the Islamic world? Think about that word: 'pretending'...
Yes, actually I do. The fact is that they hate us for reasons - our support of Israel over Palestine and our desire to pump oil out of their countries without recognizing their problems. To lump every Middle Eastern Arab Muslim into the category of hating Americans and being trained to hate us doesn't demonstrate a grasp of the reality. The reality is they are a poor society with little education who have been allowed to suffer (and occassionally forced to suffer) while the US used them for whatever it wanted - drive the Russians out of Afghanistan, support pro-Israeli policy, pump oil, whatever. I'd probably hate the US too if I were in their shoes but that wouldn't mean I'd want to be a terrorist. It also doesn't mean that their culture should be irradicated simply because they don't agree. Martin Luther King said it best, "We can all peacefully co-exist or destroy ourselves."
So, you suggest we round up all Islamics and put them to death? If we are at war with them, wouldn't that be the best way to handle it? Are you suggesting genocide as a solution? Israel WANTS us to be at war with Islam, but even the bulk of Islamic people don't even think we are.
I would hope it doesn't come to that, Jeff. I really do not want us to become a fascist state that rounds up Arabs and executes them. I would, however, be very happy if we started doing background checks on any first-generation Arab-Americans who have been here for less than 10 years, and I would certainly not give any student visas to anyone who comes from a terrorist-sponsoring state. Did you know that the weekend before last that 14 Syrians flew into DFW airport (on student visas) to get flight training in Dallas? And the FBI and the INS did nothing? Does that make you feel safe? I took my rosy-colored glasses off years ago. I can now face the ugly truth that the current generation of young Arabic men hates us and is very happy to see Americans die. Now, I'm off to see the recruiter, and I'll respond later...
treeman do you see how the nazis were saying exactly the same things you were? to them jews were all evil and terrorists just like you consider all arabs or even muslims now. hypocrisy sucks.
treeman: I promise not to argue with you about it anymore now that I know how you feel. It is painfully obvious that you have a very specific issue with Arabs and Muslims and it is pointless to make any arguments because your mind is made up.
I really really REALLY hope treeman's recruiter is Arab-American. That would be poetic justice of the highest order.
Israel is playing with fire on both sides of the table now. It's cool when we give them $3billion a year in aid and they think they can play these kinds of games. The whole Middle East is puzzling right now. Egypt gets $2billion in aid from us yet Hosni Mubarak is quieter than a silent film. Jordan is supposedly a big ally yet the King there is nowhere to be found to back us. The Saudis are supposedly our supporters yet they're screwing us behind the scenes and won't even freeze Al-Qaeda assets. WTF? These people need to step forward and get with the program here.
Jeff, Where do you get that information? You're making a blanket generalization about Israelis, just like treeman is making a blanket statement about Arabs. I don't think Israel want us or anyone to be at "war" with "Islam". I think they merely want a place to live in peace.
There was a very prevelant mindset from the late 40's through most of the 80's in Israel that peace with the Arabs wasn't attainable, and that all Arab nations must constantly be viewed as a threat including Egypt, with whom they have had peaceful elations for about 20 years. This paranoid attitude was born out of the Palestinian War and the 6 day war, among others, and is an understandable reaction to the constant millitary threat that Arab states have posed from the inception of Israel. A couple of facts are apparent, however. Palestinians living in the occupied territories are treated as less than full human beings. Since the beginning of the Intifada roughly 130 Israelis have died compared to 700+ Palestinians. There is some legitimacy to the Palestinian position. The civil rights movement in the US in the 60's and the abolishment of apartheid in South Africa both involved 'agressors' seeking to change the status quo, but neither group is considered unjust. The Palestinians are in a similar position. Unfortunately their position is made less clear by Israel's paranoia and the undying malace of nearby Arab nations. As Q8 Rocket pointed out in another thread, the position of a vast majority of Arabs is that there will be no peace until Israel is gone. Having to defend against this kind of thinking, how can Israel seriously give up any land, when it will make them more easily attacked. Add to this the fact that the West Bank looks down on the rest of Israel and would make a great position for fireing artilery on Israel with impugnity, and as long as Israel feels threatened, they will never acceed to any real peace with the Palestinians. Of course, it would also help if Arafat would keep to the terms of his agreements with Israel. Clearly, Israel has been more forthcoming in keeping its word, which leads to further distrust by Ariel Sharon, already a paranoid among paranoids. It is my opinion that the Palestinian Authority should do their best to tone down the violence a bit and attempt to accomidate the Israeli demands. The only way that they will ever acheve a real autonomy is if they convence an Israeli leader (most likely not Ariel Sharon) that they will not be part of an Arab conspiracy to destroy Israel. I believe that the US seems to be forwarding that position, and that it is in both sides best intrest to tone down the rhetoric.
Israel's a thoroughly racist state. Is it any wonder the Arabs hate it? 1. Totalitarian regime that occupies Palestine w/o allowing them the vote. 2. Deprives them of water. 3. Deprives them of electricity. 4. Refuses them to grant them basic political rights like freedom of speech and the press. 5. Refuses to make them citizens or grant them autonomy. 6. Violates UN law in occupation. 7. Routinely violates civil rights through harrassment. 8. Deprives them of economic prosperity by restricting development and access to jobs. 9. Descriminates against Arab-Israelis through unequal religion laws. Awful racist state. We're supporting it. Does that make us racist? yes.
Israel was attaced by Arab states on the day of their inception. I ask you, is their Racism a cause of hatred or a reaction to hatred? My opinion is that the Arabs are equaly racist, if not more racist, and there are few if any mitigating reasons for their racism. By the way, any Arabs and their offspring who were living in Israel when it was incorperated have Israeli citizenship. There are Palestinian members of the Knesset, and they are permited the special right to address the Knesset in Arabic, with translators providing translation to Hebrew. Jewish members of the Knesset, despite the fact that many of them naturaly speak Russian, or Yiddish, or other languages are required to speak Hebrew.
Of course both sides are racist. Unfortunately, that doesn't justify Israel's treatment of Palestinians. If there were substantial Jewish populations in Iran that were being persecuted, I'd be equally upset. War is never justified, but I can understand the invasion of Israel. Not exactly fair, the way it was arbitrarily created. But Arab-Israelis have few more rights than other non-Israeli Arabs. They still don't have access to the hugely lucrative public sector, and face discrimination in their daily lives. Their situations are "better" but still pretty wretched. The standard of living for Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis is massively different... and it ain't because they're smarter. Also, I would not object to Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories if Israel had made effords to assimilate the Palestinians peacefully. I'm a realist. Wars and occupations take place. But it's not right to hang people in constant limbo, and deprive them of basic rights.
I feel we really shouldn't be quick to judge Israel....lest be in their shoes...I know two people who came from Israel, and they believe in their homeland's cause. I have heard horrific stories from one named Rammi. He is now 23, but he told me about a time when him and his cousin were running home to school (as kids) to see who could get there the fastest...his cousin was in front, and as they turned the corner around a building, he heard a loud bang and realized his cousin had dropped in front of him and Rammi stumbled and suddenly realized he was covered in blood!!!...At first he thought he was shot, but looked down and realized his cousin's head was literally split in two!...He told me that he doesn't even remember running home. His family later found out it was the Palestinians responsible.... Rammi said he still has nightmares to this day, nearly every night... he had only told me the story once, but you had to be there to see the look in his eyes... He had an expression as if he was reliving the pain, and horror...I never asked any more particulars about this to Rammi and for some reason he hasn't said much about the 9/11 terrorist incident.... but I can tell you....you will never meet such a friendly, and kind person. He gets along with everyone. What we have talked about is how he hopes his former home will have peace, but added he finds it difficult to calm his own hatred about those people. However, he has such a calm and unassuming demeanor, one would never think he went through something like this before. I would hardly think of him as racist and hope people will understand the pain of people such as him.
