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US begins building treaty-breaching germ war defence centre

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by wnes, Aug 1, 2006.

  1. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Is anyone still wondering about what happens to the "investigation" of the anthrax outbreak in U.S. not long ago?

    US begins building treaty-breaching germ war defence centre

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1833723,00.html

    Julian Borger in Washington
    Monday July 31, 2006
    The Guardian

    Construction work has begun near Washington on a vast germ warfare laboratory intended to help protect the US against an attack with biological weapon, but critics say the laboratory's work will violate international law and its extreme secrecy will exacerbate a biological arms race.

    The National Biodefence Analysis and Countermeasures Centre (NBACC), due to be completed in 2008, will house heavily guarded and hermetically sealed chambers in which scientists simulate potential terrorist attacks.

    To do so, the centre will have to produce and stockpile the world's most lethal bacteria and viruses, which is forbidden by the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention. Three years before that treaty was agreed, President Richard Nixon halted the production of US biological weapons at Fort Detrick in Maryland. The same military base is the site for the new $128m (£70m), 160,000 sq ft laboratory.

    The green light for its construction was given after the September 11 attacks, which coincided with a series of still-unsolved anthrax incidents that killed five people. The department of homeland security, which will run the centre, says its work is necessary to protect the country. "All the programmes we do are defensive in nature," Maureen McCarthy, director of homeland security research and development, told the Washington Post. "Our job is to ensure that the civilian population of the country is protected, and that we know what the threats are."

    The biological weapons convention stipulates that the signatories must not "develop, produce, stockpile, or otherwise acquire or retain" biological weapons, and does not distinguish between offensive and defensive intentions.

    A presentation given by Lieutenant Colonel George Korch said the NBACC would be used to apply "red team operational scenarios and capabilities" - military jargon for simulating enemy attacks.

    Some analysts say the extraordinary secrecy surrounding the project will heighten suspicions of US intentions and accelerate work on similar facilities around the world.
     
    #1 wnes, Aug 1, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  2. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Please stop, that is horrible. When will the US stop being a rogue nation?

    Who are these critics, al qaeda?

    I am appalled.
     
  3. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    I love it when a thread arises that casts China in a negative light, and wnes becomes huffy and immediately goes straight to the Guardian (LOL) and finds some anti-American piece.


    Can you say penis envy? Sorry, wnes, but you lose. Again.
     
  4. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    What happened in China wrt the massive dog slaughtering was limited to a local government, in an effort to stop the rabies virus from spreading. The Chinese media exposed it and the central government also criticized the local government's belated action. I don't know how anyone with a brain can find fault with that, given the circumstance. I do find it amusing you are aligning yourself with PETA.

    What the U.S. government is doing here on the other hand is a very serious offense, i.e., blatantly breaching the international BWC treaty to which it's a signatory. The U.S. goes around the world accusing Iran and NK developing nukes, and even invaded Iraq on bogus WMD claims. Don't you feel ashamed that U.S. as the most powerful nation is in fact the biggest "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" hypocrite on earth? Don't you have any concern this project operated in secrecy further undermines the Americans' already weak credibility in the world?

    The fact that the Guardian picked up this is not ground for dismissal. Like it or not, the same story was also reported by Washington Post. Most US mainstream media, however, seem to see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil.
     
    #4 wnes, Aug 2, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  5. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Here's the rest of the Article the 'journalist' at the Guardian conveniently leaves out:

    Article I of the BWC reads as follows: "Each state party to this Convention undertakes never in any circumstances to develop, produce, stockpile or otherwise acquire or retain: (1) Microbial or other biological agents, or toxins whatever their origin or method of production, of types and in quantities that have no justification for prophylactic, protective or other peaceful purposes [emphasis added]

    http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hsp/biologic.html
     
    #5 HayesStreet, Aug 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2006
  6. OldManBernie

    OldManBernie Old Fogey

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    I love it when a thread arises that casts your political view in a negative light, and you become huffy and immediately go straight to the ad hominem to attack other posters.
     
  7. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    LOL hayes, good to see you come out of woodwook. Didn't Iran and NK use the same claim and what are the international community fussing about them developing WMDs?
     
  8. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    I'd rather they use the money to pay off our insane debt.
     
  9. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    The point is that the article is based on a flawed premise. It claims the action is against international law where it clearly isn't. I don't suppose we can wait around for you to make a retraction in lieu of the author?

    That NK or Iran might have made similar statements (not sure if that is true or not) is irrelevant to whether or not it is legal, proper, or useful for the US to build this facility.
     
  10. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Just as the U.S. can claim that we are developing stockpiles of biological warfare agents for "prophylactic, protective or other peaceful purposes" per BWC, Iran can say the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty gives them the "inalienable right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes." I think everyone would agree the language in the third pillar of NPT in favor of Iranian's excuse is in fact much stronger that the provision in BWC used by the U.S.

    How is this comparison flawed and irrelevant?
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Because Iran has expressly violated NPT guidelines (regarding inspections, etc) in the view of the IAEA, and has been reported to the UNSC for such, while the US has not violated any BWC guidelines (except in the mind of a foolish brit who doesn't understand the treaty).

    wnes, lost in the shuffle of your ongoing war against "imperialism", do you honestly think Iran's nuclear program is for non-military purposes only? A yes or no answer will suffice.

    Finally, your analogy doesn't fit because to develop anthrax/smallpox/bioweapon vaccines - it's a physical necessity to experiment with live viruses and bacterium. To experiment on how to cure radiation sickness, we don't have to blow up cities with 50 megaton bombs.
     
    #11 SamFisher, Aug 2, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  12. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Well Sam, allow me to play the role of devil's advocate.

    Even if Iran violated NPT guidelines, does that legally and/or automatically void their "inalienable right to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes"?

    I am not a lawyer, but I expect honest answer from you.

    LOL... the good ol' "anti-imperialism" card. Nice. But unlike you and hayes, I am not a fortune teller.

    Now here you are getting ridiculous. On the one hand you are saying stockpiles of biological warfare agents are needed to "phycially experiment" the effects of them, on the other hand you proclaim anti-nuclear bomb tests should only be conducted in test tubes. Did they really teach you this kind of logic in law school?
     
    #12 wnes, Aug 2, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  13. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Again, are you agreeing that the assertion made by the author of the article you posted is incorrect?

    The best logical inference you can draw is that any rationale advanced by any two actors for any two actions are similar because they are rationale advanced by any two actors for any two actions. That is the extent of the similarity. That is, at best, unenlightening and at worst a fatally flawed premise from which to make comparisons. Specifically, what NK or Iran may have claimed - and whether those claims were true or not, do not prove or disprove anything about the US action. Your logic is akin to:

    wnes told his wife he was going to the grocery store, but he went to a bar.
    therefore, when bob told his wife he was going to the grocery store, he must have gone to the bar.
     
  14. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Honest answer:

    1. Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with articles I and II of this Treaty.

    Your inalienable rights vanish, the way I read this, if you are violating 1 and 2 (weapons). Also Article III sets up the IAEA to monitor to make sure 1 and 2 aren't being violated.

    Anyway, it's not the use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes that the IAEA, the UNSC, or the US is concerned about - which is why Iran has been offered all sorts of peaceful nuclear aid in order to augment that right by the EU, US, etc. That right is not being denied by anybody.

    Well I'm not a fortune teller either, but I have a good guess. My answer is that I do believe Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons, and that a nuclear armed Iran is a bad thing.

    Where do you stand? Whether or not you can tell the future, if you're running US (or EU, or any) policy, you can't just say "hell if I know!" and ignore it, you have to take a stand

    [/quote]

    Ridiculous? I thought this was pretty simple.

    I'm saying you can't conduct research on viruses in terms of finding antidotes and vaccines without experimenting with the virus itself. You have to possess anthrax cultures in petri dishes to study the effects of antibiotics on them. You don't need "stockpiles" as in warehouses full, of course not, that would be silly and dangerous. I never said that.

    Anti-infectious disease research can (and must) be conducted in test-tubes (and is conducted every day in some form by researchers around the world. You can't blow up a nuclear bomb in a test-tube, however.
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    should we shut down the CDC, too?
     
  16. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    Uh... the US never ratified the Biological Weapons Convention.
     
  17. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    :confused:

    http://www.opbw.org/

    United States of America signed 10-04-72 and ratified 26-03-75
     
  18. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    The author "clearly" -- as "clear" as your assertion that the U.S. is "clearly" NOT violating BWC -- implied the hypocrisy of U.S. "Do as I say but not as I do" policy with regard to the development of WMD.

    The similarity lies in the perception of motivation. There is nothing inherently incorrect that the author took his position that the U.S. is treading water in a dangerously gray area. The claim that "we can do whatever we want because our intention is good" is clearly a double-edged sword for both the U.S. and anybody else, including our adversaries such as Iran and NK.
     
  19. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Thank you Sam for being honest. "The way I read this" means it's subject to interpretation.

    I fully agree it's a grave concern to the world if Iran possesses nukes. But on the other hand do these "sweet deals" somehow limit the ability of Iran or preclude Iran from developing their own nuclear energy, seen by the Iranians as the infringement of their "inalienable rights", especially when the U.S. itself is practicing double standards?

    I am against the proliferation of WMDs all along, regardless of "intentions."

    The said "Centre" will have to produce stockpiles of the most dangerous biological warfare agents, according to the article. That's not disputed, Sam.
     
    #19 wnes, Aug 2, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  20. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Uh, no.
     

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