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US and Israel Together inb Iraq to Train Assassination Squads Israelit Style

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Dec 9, 2003.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    In another brutal similarity to the occupation of Palestine, the US, with Israeli tutelage, is getting into the wholesale assassination business once again like it did in Vietnam.

    I saw an article several weeks ago by Pat Buchanan who said that he thought Bush and crew rather than withdraw for the 2004 election, would still try to win this militarily by escalating the violence, as that is the one tactic they have trust in.

    The US is hoping to turn Iraq into a Guatemala with paid paramilitaries of Iraqis indiscriminately killing Baathists and family members friends and relatives. Given the role of much of the Bush administration in the slaughter of Mayan Indian villages in Guatemala and tens of thousands in El Salvador and Nicaragua I guess this is to have been suspected. It is interesting to see how they hope to pay ex Baathists from Sadam old security agency to assist with this.

    Pray for the wives and children of Baathists as the US goes back into the wholesale assassination business.


    Back to the old Vietnam quote. "We had to destroy the village so we could liberate it."
    *********

    MOVING TARGETS
    by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
    Will the counter-insurgency plan in Iraq repeat the mistakes of Vietnam?
    Issue of 2003-12-15
    Posted 2003-12-08
    The Bush Administration has authorized a major escalation of the Special Forces covert war in Iraq. ... Its highest priority is the neutralization of the Baathist insurgents, by capture or assassination.

    The revitalized Special Forces mission is a policy victory for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who has struggled for two years to get the military leadership to accept the strategy of what he calls “Manhunts”—....

    One step the Pentagon took was to seek active and secret help in the war against the Iraqi insurgency from Israel, America’s closest ally in the Middle East. According to American and Israeli military and intelligence officials, Israeli commandos and intelligence units have been working closely with their American counterparts ... “No one wants to talk about this,” an Israeli official told me. “It’s incendiary. Both governments have decided at the highest level that it is in their interests to keep a low profile on U.S.-Israeli coöperation” on Iraq.) The critical issue, American and Israeli officials agree, is intelligence. There is much debate about whether targeting a large number of individuals is a practical—or politically effective—way to bring about stability in Iraq, especially given the frequent failure of American forces to obtain consistent and reliable information there.

    Americans in the field are trying to solve that problem by developing a new source of information: they plan to assemble teams drawn from the upper ranks of the old Iraqi intelligence services and train them to penetrate the insurgency. The idea is for the infiltrators to provide information about individual insurgents for the Americans to act on. A former C.I.A. station chief described the strategy in simple terms: “U.S. shooters and Iraqi intelligence.” He added, “There are Iraqis in the intelligence business who have a better idea, and we’re tapping into them. We have to resuscitate Iraqi intelligence, holding our nose, and have Delta and agency shooters break down doors and take them”—the insurgents—“out.”

    ..., “The only way we can win is to go unconventional. We’re going to have to play their game. Guerrilla versus guerrilla. Terrorism versus terrorism. We’ve got to scare the Iraqis into submission.”



    ... The problem with the way the U.S. has been fighting the Baathist leadership, he said, is “(a) we’ve got no intelligence, and (b) we’re too squeamish to operate in this part of the world.” Referring to the American retaliation against a suspected mortar site, the former official said, “Instead of destroying an empty soccer field, why not impress me by sneaking in a sniper team and killing them while they’re setting up a mortar? We do need a more unconventional response, but it’s going to be messy.”

    ... Many of them fear that the proposed operation—called “preëmptive manhunting” by one Pentagon adviser—has the potential to turn into another Phoenix Program. Phoenix was the code name for a counter-insurgency program that the U.S. adopted during the Vietnam War, in which Special Forces teams were sent out to capture or assassinate Vietnamese believed to be working with or sympathetic to the Vietcong. In choosing targets, the Americans relied on information supplied by South Vietnamese Army officers and village chiefs. The operation got out of control. According to official South Vietnamese statistics, Phoenix claimed nearly forty-one thousand victims between 1968 and 1972; the U.S. counted more than twenty thousand in the same time span. Some of those assassinated had nothing to do with the war against America but were targeted because of private grievances. ...

    The former official says that the Baathist leadership apparently relies on “face-to-face communications” in planning terrorist attacks. This makes the insurgents less vulnerable to one of the Army’s most secret Special Forces units, known as Grey Fox, which has particular expertise in interception and other technical means of intelligence-gathering. “These guys are too smart to touch cell phones or radio,” the former official said. “It’s all going to succeed or fail spectacularly based on human intelligence.”

    A former C.I.A. official with extensive Middle East experience identified one of the key players on the new American-Iraqi intelligence team as Farouq Hijazi, a Saddam loyalist who served for many years as the director of external operations for the Mukhabarat, the Iraqi intelligence service. He has been in custody since late April. The C.I.A. man said that over the past few months Hijazi “has cut a deal,” and American officials “are using him to reactivate the old Iraqi intelligence network.” He added, ..

    The official went on, “It’s not the way we usually play ball, but if you see a couple of your guys get blown away it changes things. We did the American things—and we’ve been the nice guy. Now we’re going to be the bad guy, and being the bad guy works.”

    Told of such comments, the Pentagon adviser, who is an expert on unconventional war, expressed dismay. “There are people saying all sorts of wild things about Manhunts,” he said. “But they aren’t at the policy level. It’s not a no-holds policy, and it shouldn’t be. I’m as tough as anybody, but we’re also a democratic society, and we don’t fight terror with terror. There will be a lot of close controls—do’s and don’ts and rules of engagement.” The adviser added, “The problem is that we’ve not penetrated the bad guys. The Baath Party is run like a cell system. It’s like penetrating the Vietcong—we never could do it.”



    ...

    One of the key planners of the Special Forces offensive is Lieutenant General William (Jerry) Boykin, Cambone’s military assistant. After a meeting with Rumsfeld early last summer—they got along “like two old warriors,” the Pentagon consultant said—Boykin postponed his retirement, which had been planned for June, and took the Pentagon job, which brought him a third star. In that post, the Pentagon adviser told me, Boykin has been “an important piece” of the planned escalation. In October, the Los Angeles Times reported that Boykin, while giving Sunday-morning talks in uniform to church groups, had repeatedly equated the Muslim world with Satan....

    ...
    The American-Israeli liaison on Iraq amounts to a tutorial on how to dismantle an insurgency. One former Israeli military-intelligence officer summarized the core lesson this way: “How to do targeted killing, which is very relevant to the success of the war, and what the United States is going to have to do.” He told me that the Americans were being urged to emulate the Israeli Army’s small commando units, known as Mist’aravim, which operate undercover inside the West Bank and Gaza Strip. “They can approach a house and pounce,” the former officer said. In the Israeli view, he added, the Special Forces units must learn “how to maintain a network of informants.” Such a network, he said, has made it possible for Israel to penetrate the West Bank and Gaza Strip organizations controlled by groups such as Hamas, and to assassinate or capture potential suicide bombers along with many of the people who recruit and train them.

    On the other hand, the former officer said, “Israel has, in many ways, been too successful, and has killed or captured so many mid-ranking facilitators on the operational level in the West Bank that Hamas now consists largely of isolated cells that carry out terrorist attacks against Israel on their own.” He went on, “There is no central control over many of the suicide bombers. We’re trying to tell the Americans that they don’t want to eliminate the center. The key is not to have freelancers out there.”

    Many regional experts, Americans and others, are convinced that the Baathists are still firmly in charge of the insurgency, although they are thought to have little direct connection with Saddam Hussein. An American military analyst who works with the American-led Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad told me he has concluded that “mid-ranking Baathists who were muzzled by the patrimonial nature of Saddam’s system have now, with the disappearance of the high-ranking members, risen to control the insurgency.” He added that after the American attack and several weeks “of being like deer in headlights,” these Baathists had become organized, and were directing and leading operations against Americans. During an interview in Washington, a senior Arab diplomat noted, “We do not believe that the resistance is loyal to Saddam. Yes, the Baathists have reorganized, not for political reasons but because of the terrible decisions made by Jerry Bremer”—the director of the C.P.A. “The Iraqis really want to make you pay the price,” the diplomat said. “Killing Saddam will not end it.”

    Similarly, a Middle Eastern businessman who has advised senior Bush Administration officials told me that the reorganized Baath Party is “extremely active, working underground with permanent internal communications. And without Saddam.” Baath party leaders, he added, expect Saddam to issue a public statement of self-criticism, “telling of his mistakes and his excesses,” including his reliance on his sons.

    There is disagreement, inevitably, on the extent of Baathist control. The former Israeli military-intelligence officer said, “Most of the firepower comes from the Baathists, and they know where the weapons are kept. But many of the shooters are ethnic and tribal. Iraq is very factionalized now, and within the Sunni community factionalism goes deep.” He added, “Unless you settle this, any effort at reconstruction in the center is hopeless.”

    The American military analyst agreed that the current emphasis on Baathist control “overlooks the nationalist and tribal angle.” For example, he said, the anti-coalition forces in Falluja, a major center of opposition, are “driven primarily by the sheikhs and mosques, Islam, clerics, and nationalism.” The region, he went on, contains “tens of thousands of unemployed former military officers and enlistees who hang around the coffee shops and restaurants of their relatives; they plot, plan, and give and receive instructions; at night they go out on their missions.”

    This military analyst, like many officials I spoke to, also raised questions about the military’s more conventional tactics—the aggressive program, code-named Iron Hammer, of bombings, nighttime raids, and mass arrests aimed at trouble spots in Sunni-dominated central Iraq. The insurgents, he told me, had already developed a response. “Their S.O.P.”—standard operating procedure—“now is to go further out, or even to other towns, so that American retribution does not fall on their locale. Instead, the Americans take it out on the city where the incident happened, and in the process they succeed in making more enemies.”

    The brazen Iraqi attacks on two separate American convoys in Samarra, on November 30th, provided further evidence of the diversity of the opposition to the occupation. Samarra has been a center of intense anti-Saddam feelings, according to Ahmed S. Hashim, an expert on terrorism who is a professor of strategic studies at the U.S. Naval War College. In an essay published in August by the Middle East Institute, Hashim wrote, “Many Samarra natives—who had served with distinction in the Baath Party and the armed forces—were purged or executed during the course of the three decades of rule by Saddam and his cronies from the rival town of Tikrit.” He went on, “The type of U.S. force structure in Iraq—heavy armored and mechanized units—and the psychological disposition of these forces which have been in Iraq for months is simply not conducive to the successful waging of counter-insurgency warfare.”



    The majority of the Bush Administration’s manhunting missions remain classified, but one earlier mission, in Afghanistan, had mixed results at best. Last November, an Al Qaeda leader named Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi was killed when an unmanned Predator reconnaissance aircraft fired a Hellfire missile at his automobile in Yemen. Five passengers in the automobile were also killed, and it was subsequently reported that two previous Predator missions in Yemen had been called off at the last moment when it was learned that the occupants of suspect vehicles were local Bedouins, and not Al Qaeda members.

    Since then, an adviser to the Special Forces command has told me, infighting among the various senior military commands has made it difficult for Special Forces teams on alert to take immediate advantage of time-sensitive intelligence. Rumsfeld repeatedly criticized Air Force General Charles Holland, a four-star Special Forces commander who has just retired, for his reluctance to authorize commando raids without specific, or “actionable,” intelligence. Rumsfeld has also made a systematic effort to appoint Special Forces advocates to the top military jobs. Another former Special Forces commander, Army General Peter Schoomaker, was brought out of retirement in July and named Army Chief of Staff. The new civilian Assistant Secretary for Special Operations in the Pentagon is Thomas O’Connell, an Army veteran who served in the Phoenix program in Vietnam, and who, in the early eighties, ran Grey Fox, the Army’s secret commando unit.

    Early in November, the Times reported the existence of Task Force 121, and said that it was authorized to take action throughout the region, if necessary, in pursuit of Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, and other terrorists. (The task force is commanded by Air Force Brigadier General Lyle Koenig, an experienced Special Forces helicopter pilot.) At that point, the former Special Forces official told me, the troops were “chasing the deck of cards. Their job was to find Saddam, period.” Other Special Forces, in Afghanistan, were targeting what is known as the A.Q.S.L., the Al Qaeda Senior Leadership List.

    The task force’s search for Saddam was, from the beginning, daunting. According to Scott Ritter, a former United Nations weapons inspector, it may have been fatally flawed as well. From 1994 to 1998, Ritter directed a special U.N. unit that eavesdropped on many of Saddam Hussein’s private telephone communications. “The high-profile guys around Saddam were the murafaqin, his most loyal companions, who could stand next to him carrying a gun,” Ritter told me. “But now he’s gone to a different tier—the tribes. He has released the men from his most sensitive units and let them go back to their tribes, and we don’t know where they are. The manifests of those units are gone; they’ve all been destroyed.” Ritter added, “Guys like Farouq Hijazi can deliver some of the Baath Party cells, and he knows where some of the intelligence people are. But he can’t get us into the tribal hierarchy.” The task force, in any event, has shifted its focus from the hunt for Saddam as it is increasingly distracted by the spreading guerrilla war.

    In addition to the Special Forces initiative, the military is also exploring other approaches to suppressing the insurgency. The Washington Post reported last week that the American authorities in Baghdad had agreed, with some reluctance, to the formation of an Iraqi-led counter-terrorism militia composed of troops from the nation’s five largest political parties. The paramilitary unit, totalling some eight hundred troops or so, would “identify and pursue insurgents” who had eluded arrest, the newspaper said. The group’s initial missions would be monitored and approved by American commanders, but eventually it would operate independently.

    Task Force 121’s next major problem may prove to be Iran. There is a debate going on inside the Administration about American and Israeli intelligence that suggests that the Shiite-dominated Iranian government may be actively aiding the Sunni-led insurgency in Iraq—“pulling the strings on the puppet,” as one former intelligence official put it. Many in the intelligence community are skeptical of this analysis—the Pentagon adviser compared it to “the Chalabi stuff,” referring to now discredited prewar intelligence on W.M.D. supplied by Iraqi defectors. But I was told by several officials that the intelligence was considered to be highly reliable by civilians in the Defense Department. A former intelligence official said that one possible response under consideration was for the United States to train and equip an Iraqi force capable of staging cross-border raids. The American goal, he said, would be to “make the cost of supporting the Baathists so dear that the Iranians would back off,” adding, “If it begins to look like another Iran-Iraq war, that’s another story.”



    The requirement that America’s Special Forces units operate in secrecy, a former senior coalition adviser in Baghdad told me, has provided an additional incentive for increasing their presence in Iraq. The Special Forces in-country numbers are not generally included in troop totals. Bush and Rumsfeld have insisted that more American troops are not needed, but that position was challenged by many senior military officers in private conversations with me. “You need more people,” the former adviser, a retired admiral, said. “But you can’t add them, because Rummy’s taken a position. So you invent a force that won’t be counted.”

    At present, there is no legislation that requires the President to notify Congress before authorizing an overseas Special Forces mission. The Special Forces have been expanded enormously in the Bush Administration. The 2004 Pentagon budget provides more than six and a half billion dollars for their activities—a thirty-four-per-cent increase over 2003. A recent congressional study put the number of active and reserve Special Forces troops at forty-seven thousand, and has suggested that the appropriate House and Senate committees needed to debate the “proper overall role” of Special Forces in the global war on terrorism.

    The former intelligence official depicted the Delta and seal teams as “force multipliers”—small units that can do the work of much larger ones and thereby increase the power of the operation as a whole. He also implicitly recognized that such operations would become more and more common; when Special Forces target the Baathists, he said, “it’s technically not assassination—it’s normal combat operations.”


    link
     
  2. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Wait, who are the bad guys again? :(
     
  3. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Greenvegan, don't you know the drill? We can assassinate whole families, by mistakingly bombing and killing 9 kids in Afghanistan like we did a few days ago because a possible "terrorist" suspect was in the house.

    We are always still the good guys because, well "we're Americans," nuff said.

    Besides being a bit more nuanced about whether American is always the good guy would be as shocking to most Americans as a kid learning that there is no Santa Claus.
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Here's a good article on the subject:

     
  5. Nomar

    Nomar Member

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    Good. I hope more accidents happen. Maybe that would make the resistance against our troops look less attractive.

    Whatever it takes to accomplish our goals, and protect the lives of American troops.
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    GV's question might be even more appropo than ever after reading this statement.
     
  7. AMS

    AMS Member

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    Its a sad day in this world when the heroes are going around and becoming the villian. :(

    Who do the bystanders side with, Its a lose lose situation
     
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I imagine you just said this to get a big kick out of seeing people go crazy, but if you think our goals of not wanting afghans or other muslims to hate us so much that they're willing to massacre us or that american lives are protected when stuff like this happens, then you are stupider than you are obnoxious.
     
  9. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    In the war against terror, the gloves comes off...Tactical tacticians and those who study this stuff at Westpoint agree UNconventional tactics works best in combating terrorists and conflictive terroristic endeavors...
     
  10. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Nomar's wishes come true.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...re_as/afghan_children_killed&cid=516&ncid=716
    World - AP Asia


    Six Afghan Children Killed in U.S. Attack
    14 minutes ago

    By STEPHEN GRAHAM, Associated Press Writer

    KABUL, Afghanistan - Six children were killed during an assault by U.S. forces on a compound in eastern Afghanistan (news - web sites), a U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday, the second time in a week that civilians have died in action against Taliban and al-Qaida suspects.
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    "We try very hard not to kill anyone. We would prefer to capture the terrorists rather than kill them," Hilferty said. "But in this incident, if noncombatants surround themselves with thousands of weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition and howitzers and mortars in a compound known to be used by a terrorist we are not completely responsible for the consequences."
    .
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    .


    Like those kids had a choice. Unless of course they were terrorist kids then it's OK. But then again those nine we killed earlier were just next to the wrong guy since we got bad intel again...
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    Why would it make the resistence against our troops look less attractive? It wasn't the families of the resisters that were killed. It was just some villagers who may have been supporters of the U.S. troops. Would the U.S. armed forces killing innocent supporters of our goals make resistance look less or more attractive?

    By assuming that the children who died were automatically somehow connected to the resisters is prejudiced and racist. It may not be with any malicious intent that you assumed any Afghan villagers family is automatically supporting the resistance but by your comments that is what you assumed and it's an ignorant generalization.
     
  12. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    I forgot this point, what has been the results of the Israeli tactics? It seems like there are just as many suicide attacks as before but I don't have any statistics.
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Actually I think they dissipated for a while, but I haven't seen any data since an Atlantic article from last spring.
     
  14. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    The result has been the death of many terrorists and the saving of many innocent Israeli lives. To say that Israeli self- defense is the cause of Palestinian rage and terrorism is pure hogwash in my opinion.

    Besides, what is happening in Iraq is very different. From the polls I have read, they want us there to support the security of the people. Furthermore, attacks are increasingly targetting Iraqi leaders, since the terrorists know the power is to be shifted to them eventually.
     
  15. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    I haven't noticed *any* dropoff in suicide attacks. I also did not propose a causal relationship or inverse relationship. I asked for statistics.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    Israeli self defense isn't the problem. Israeli oppression, and breaking of UN resolutions and the geneva convention is the problem. I'm all for Israel going after the terrorists. I'm all for Palestinians going after the terrorists.

    I'm not in favor oppressing a people based solely on the fact that they are a different nationality.
     
  17. F.D. Khan

    F.D. Khan Member

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    Anyone know what happened to the "Right of Return" thread? I know Bammaslammer was getting out of line and I think the admin's deleted the thread and I wouldn't be surprised if they banned him.
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Apparently, the USMC thinks that this is a bad idea as well:


     
  19. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Here's what one Israeli historian thinks.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=pd_sim_art_elt/002-4653008-1573631?v=glance

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=4&u=/ap/20031212/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_iraq_1

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    Brig. Gen. Michael Vane, deputy chief of staff at the U.S. Army's Training and Doctrine Command, acknowledged in a letter to Army Magazine in July that "we recently traveled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counter-terrorist operations in urban areas."

    Martin Van Creveld, an Israeli military expert, warned that just as Israel has been unsuccessful in eliminating militant groups and suicide bombers, the United States cannot expect to be victorious in Iraq.

    Van Creveld traveled to Camp Lejeune, N.C., last year to lecture U.S. military officials on the door-to-door fighting that took place in April 2002 in the West Bank refugee camp of Jenin. Twenty-three Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians were killed in the battle.

    "They are already doing things that we have been doing for years to no avail, like demolishing buildings ... like closing off villages in barbed wire," Van Creveld said. "The Americans are coming here to try to mimic all kinds of techniques, but it's not going to do them any good."

    In Iraq, the Americans have a more difficult task than Israel's in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Van Creveld said. Iraq is larger, the borders are open and there is almost unlimited access to arms.

    "I don't see how on earth they (the U.S.) can win. I think this is going to end the same way Vietnam did," Van Creveld said. "They are going to flee the country hanging on the strings of helicopters," he added, referring to the 1973 U.S. departure from Saigon
     
  20. glynch

    glynch Member

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    So what if anything happened to bamaslammer? I must admit that I don't miss him if he got banned. Just curious.
     

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