We have had a chance to have a look at Malick in summer league against so-so competition. Last yr, Eddie did prett well against the same scubs, but struggled his first yr. Just looking at the age and talent, if you were betting the house, who would you expect to get to their upside and become the better player? Malick or Eddie? I use these 2 because as of right now, they are probably the rawest players the Rockets have on their team even though Malick isn't officially on the team. If somehow in a yr or so , taylor and his overweight salary was traded and there was a open competition to become the Rockets pf of the future, whom do you think would give the Rockets the best fit? It may be a little early to throw out this debate and I'm one of the main people that hate when people use upside and potential, but i just want to know what people think. If Malick is given the same minutes that Griffin is getting or has been getting, does anyone think he could be a bigger forcethan Eddie offensively and defensively? Please feel free to chime in especially the ones who have been watching the summer league action.
From what I've read, it seems as though Malick is very quick and active. I want to see this first and before I make a decision. I want to see his hustle. I want to see how he plays when the game is out of reach. Does he give up or does he keep playing hard ? What? He might be a P.J. Brown type player; active jouney man, blue collar worker! Which I like. This is good competition for Griff.
I think that Griffin still has a good chance to be a good player. I think he's only 20 or 21. He was so dominant at Seton Hall. I realy thought he would have a rookie year in 01-02 like Stoudemire had last year. He has not shown the aggression that he did in college. I also am high on Badiane, although I think his best-case scenario is as a good player not as a star like Griffin's.
I havent seen Ba play. BUt from reports I just dont understand something. If he has a 33 inch vert and can dribble really well,thats the same skills as amare. Amare has a 36 inch vert and can dribble really well. Why doesnt Ba just take the ball to the rim hard and then jump and dunk liek amare everytime?? I know the summer L guards are worthless,but then the coach is also. He should say "give it to Ba ,now BA drive hard and dunk every time" why that isnt being said is beyond me. NOw the reason Griffin cant do that is because he cant jump high nor hold the ball in the air nor dribble. So Ba has alot more skills already. Also I hear that Ba is a hard worker and very active in the games,is even more reason why Im puzzled he doesnt "take over" more and have more confidence and just attack the rim at will and dunk over those sucky players. Basically, I see the same skills in bosh as i do ba,but ba doesnt look as aggressive or confident as bosh.
I don't expect Malick to make the team. Ever. And if he does, I certainly don't expect him to be better than Griff.
Hard to say now because I've barely seen Badiane play, but given what I've read and the little I've seen from him, I think Eddie still has the greater upside, but Badiane's chance of reaching his upside is better due to his relentless work ethic and desire.
Why is that? There are certain reason why guys fall down in the draft and then there are no reasons, but thats not to say guys in the 2nd rd can't be very,very good players. One of th hottest fa in the league right now is Arenas who was a 2nd rd pick. Another 2nd rd pick,Redd made ray allen expendable. Don't knock a guy because he slipped through the cracks. I just asked a question,simple one and you made it seem like Eddie was the be all end all. Eddie does have natural rebounding and shot blocking skills, but offensively , his footwork is bad and never seems to lay it on the line. Some players have the play hard because they are limited and some play hard because thats all they know. Eddie doesn't do either. I don't want to turn thsi into a Eddie sucks or Malick sux thread because thats not what this is about. I asked a question based on the youth and very limited exposure that we've had dealing with Badiane. Many people on this board expect great things from Eddie, but all I see is Donyell Marshall. All things being considered, both players are very raw , but who do you think has the more upside and would be willing to sell out to get there? Eddie or Malick? If Taylor played with energy like Bo Outlaw, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Badiane, when at his best, is a slightly better version of Olumide Oyedeji. Griffin, at his best, is a dynamic inside-out threat, although that hasn't appeared but for a few games. Griffin anyday. Plus, an important thing to realize is this: in the summer league, power forwards - especially raw & undersized ones - tend to dominate play. I'm not sure why it is, but generally, they all end up putting up gaudy stats. The only one over the past few years who has seen it translate to the NBA is Zach Randolph, and that's because he took the skills he learned there and modeled himself into a better player. He's not really undersized and the talent has always been there, but it only started to be put on display in the summer league. What I'm saying is this: temper your expectations for Badiane just based off the of the summer league. He's not in the same ballpark as EG and he should not be mentioned in the same breath...especially considering he, in all likelihood, will not make the roster next season.
I don't think it's fair to compare Badiane to Amare. Amare came into the league at 6'10" 245 lbs of pure muscle. His body was NBA ready and he was already as big or bigger than some other NBA power forwards plus the guy is just increadably strong. Badiane is 6'10" and 230lbs according to the front page of clutch city. He does not look to be as strong or as ripped as Amare. I don't think Amare has ever been accused of being pushed around by anyone at any time the way Badiane has been in the first two games. According to the reports it sounds like the only thing that Badiane really has in commen with Amare is his aggresiveness and hustle.
The one thing that worries me is that Dan Langhi did well in the Summer leagues too. And we know what happened to him.
Dynamic inside-outside threat like Walker in Boston? Instead of being multi whatever, how about becoming really good at 1 thing and then moving on? What about being a very good post player and defender, then becoming a capable mid range shooter to combine that with your low post game. What tends to happen now is that the lines get really blurred and thats why Shaq is still the most dominant player in the league. If more player played the power game like a young Karl malone or Shaq, then when they need a basket, they could get a good one instead ofhoisting a jumper. Look , to say that anyone is out of Griffins class is crazy. I mean Rudy touted this guy as the best overral talent, yet 2 high schooler have already surpassed him not to mention players like Gasol,AK-47 and even Troy Murphy are already better players than he is. It still amuses me people talk about Cato's potential and the guy is almost 30yrs old. Would you rather have the player with talent who gets to his peak or the player with more talent who just cruises? If Derrick Coleman played at 21 likehe does at 35 then we would be talking about on of the all time greats, but we all know how this story goes. Is this the path Eddie is heading towards?
If Eddie Griffin ends up at least as good as Derrick Coleman has been, he'll have a very long and productive NBA career. Badiane hasn't proven that much overseas yet, and now everyone wants to annoint him over Eddie Griffin based off of two summer league games against CBA and NBA washouts and rookies? I don't understand it. Hard work and hustle only get you to a certain point, and many players thrive in the minor leagues on that alone. Yet, those with the talent who don't use it to the full extent of their capabilities remain in the NBA. Why's that? Because natural talent overweighs hard work by a substantial margin. The superstars have both; the role players generally have talent, and the scrubs are the washouts and the hard workers. Badiane does have some talent, yes, but it's nowhere near that of Griffin. Griffin is only 21 or 22. That's a far cry from 25, 27, or 30 years old. Remember: he came into the league as a freshman in college, and while some do buck the trend and contribute immediately, the Rockets knew they had a project on their hands. If nothing has changed in a year, then sure, Griffin may well have been terribly overhyped. But to write him off after just two seasons and before you even get a chance to see what he'll do in a new system? That's crazy.
leebigez, when was the last time a decent big man fell to the second round? I agree with you about gems being found in the second round but they are rarely big men. The reason IMO is that there is such a high priority on finding a good big man that any big man with any chance at all of being a good NBA player is snatched up in the first round often times pushing a better player (Cat, VanExel etc..) down the list. Maybe I just don't recall but the last good big man that I remember being drafted outside of the first round is Bill Laimbeer or Larry Smith (I don't consider guys like Jahadi White or Todd McCullugh quality big men). I don't recall any quality big men being drafted in the second round since the NBA went to the 2 round draft.
So I guess you don't think Coleman is one of the single biggest waste of talents to come through the league? This guy, like Rasheed has hall of fame talent, but never got there because of his lack of dedication to the game. There is a difference between Duncan and Wallace and its not talent. Its hard work, putting in the extra time and really pushing your body and mind to the max. If you don't think hard work to go along with talent doesn't mean much, then your still watching channel 0. Let me give you a example. Take two talented players like J'Oneal and Camby. Caby played 3yrs of college and was the player of the yr. He was suppose to really make a difference in the game with his long reach and speed down the court. Camby was the number 2 player selected behind Iverson. In that same draft, Portland took a highschooler in O'Neal. They knew he was athletic ,long , quick, but didn't have the size to battle every night. He sat on the bench and played sparingly until he was shppied out for Davis. His 1st season he was 12pts 9rebs, then 19 pts 10 rebs and now 20ppg and 10 rebs. Albeit Camby has been injured alot, but Camby had a 3yr jump on this guy and is no where the player he is despite having equal talent. Know why? Because O'Neal works hard every off season while Camby doesn't. It doesn't take long t see what players worked on their game and what players don't. Don't ever say hard work doesn't mean anything. If Mo Taylor had the same work ethic as KG, what kind of 4 would you think he would be? I'm not just talking about the basketball part, I'm talking about the conditioning and everything else. If Mo Taylor worked out with someone like Karl Malone, would he be able to explode and grab 8-10 rebs a game? Would he be able to score 18-20 ppg? If you don't think that with the proper work ethic that a talented player like Taylor could acheive to his talent level, then this is a moot point.
leebigez, I never said Coleman wasn't a waste of talent. I never said that hard work wasn't required; in fact, to become a superstar, I said the exact opposite. You misinterpreted my post. I said that the superstars of the league require both hard work and talent, which you back up with the example of Jermaine O'Neal. I said that the role players and lesser stars of the league are generally the ones with talent, but without the hard work to back it up. You back that up with examples of Marcus Camby and Maurice Taylor. The latter fits; the former is more a result of persistent injuries...I'm not sure he's played an entire season in many, many years - if at all. I do believe that a talented player, if they work hard, can achieve big things. But the level of talent between Griffin and Badiane is a very wide margin, and it cannot be erased via hard work. Badiane at his best is still not at the level of Griffin at his worst - not now, and not down the road, despite how much he works at it. That's what I've been saying all along in my reasoning, but I think you misinterpreted it to read something else in your last reply.
What makes the talent gap so wide? What is this supreme talent that makes Griffin so good that we catch glimpses?He's a good shot blocker and decent rebounder, but what else doesn he bring to the table. Is he more talented than Curry,Chandler or even Brown? Is he even more talented than Stromile Swift? Maybe i miss something when looking at Eddie Griffin. Most see Rasheed or Garnett, but I see Donyell Marshall or Joe Smith.
Power forwards in the second round or undrafted. Ben Wallace, Antonio Davis, Dennis Rodman, Othella Harrington. Must I go on. Some of the blame for Griffin shortcomings was on the coaching staff when was last time a young talent has improved greatly other than Cuttino, Steve is pretty much the same player he was as a rookie. Badiane is actually 6'11 and is 19 he can easily grow a inch or two which would make him 7'0 and he has these round shoulders and great body I can see him holding 270 pounds with ease. Griff doesn't seem like he will ever gain enough weight, maybe he could be a skinny strong like a Garnett. Badiane doesn't have solid basketball training he needs help learning to box out and moving his feet laterally on defense and positioning himself and once he gets stronger he will be a starter in this league. Griffin will never probably see a all-star game either, but both will be solid starters. Who knows would be better.
did you see the video at rockets.com of him running the pick n roll with no defender, shooting about like Cato. It's still up on the site. He seems to have a slow jumper, too, without much jump. Of course, that is a practice, but you wonder if they'd expect him to do a normal jump shot, since they make him go after his own misses like a simulated game situation. I'll be thrilled if Badiane becomes as good as Cato or Keon Clark.
I think anyone comparing Griffin to Badiane is wasting their time at this point. For one thing, who knows how (or if!) van Gundy will use Griffin in his offense. To this point, Griffin has been camped outside for the most part. Griffin has problems maintaining the low block against big men, and that could change if he ever bulks up. Badiane, on the other hand, is so new to NBA basketball, how can you even begin to guess where he'll end up? I know I can't. Right now I'd take Griffin over Badiane. I still say Badiane's not quite ready for major minutes in the NBA against good PF's. The skills are there for him to take advantage of, however.
So those 4 guys is about the type of offense we can expect? If he reaches their level of defense, I will be sooo thrilled. Any offense is gravy. Hell, if he can just make Eddie scared for his job to work harder, I will consider it a successful pick. You still haven't named a 6'10 or higher 2nd rounder who became a starter. Is there one? The taller you get, the more naturally uncoordinated you are (despite speed or leaping ability), and if you are naturally coordinated like Hakeem at UofH (just no training), the more unlikely it is for scouts to let you slip. I'm hoping for Cato or Keon ability.
