Update: Kyrie vs NYC Vaccine Mandate: Kyrie exempted, non exempted New Yorkers mad

Kyrie is still holding out

Kyrie Irving reportedly not vaccinated as NYC mandate looms

https://nypost.com/2021/09/23/report-nets-kyrie-irving-not-vaccinated/

 

I don't understand the point of vaccine mandates at this point

It made sense before when we thought vaccines could significantly reduce the ability to transmit the virus for long periods of time.

It made sense before this current wave to lower hospital admissions.

But at this point, with this current massive hospitalization wave already peaking, with us knowing the vaccine effectiveness against transmissibility after 6 months, I'm not seeing the point of upholding and or continuing to create such systems. Especially if it's being used as an alternative to forgo testing requirements for the vaccinated in large indoor events.

Mask mandates, on the other hand, make a lot more sense when considering transmission.

 

All the head cases…go figure

 

Can’t blame him. Last time I checked, covid is the flu and vax make you believe earth is round.

 

No.

 

This reminds me of the crazy GOPers that say "well, I know someone who had the vaccine and got Covid, so it's worthless".

The "weak" Pfizer vaccine that needs a booster is still something like 75% effective after 6 months. That's the point. 75% is better than 0%.

 

I don't know why it would remind you of that, at no point did I say vaccines are worthless.

You should read more carefully before making a connection like that, IMO.


The Phizer vaccine isn't anywhere near 75% effective against infection after 6 months, with the Delta variant, unfortunately. That number is likely closer to its effectiveness at preventing hospitalization, according to the latest CDC reports. The effectiveness at preventing infection with a Phizer vaccine after 6 months was below 20% according to Israeli state data that was published in July (There has to be newer data out, but I can't find it).

I don't blame anybody for not being up to date with the latest and greatest covid stats, I know I'm not, the **** changes every day, all the numbers and headlines just blend in our minds, but with this in mind perhaps be a bit more cautious before accusing people of sounding like "crazy GOPers" etc.

My angle, my opinion is that I don't see the point of vaccine mandates or passports at this point and time.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/he...-within-six-months-uk-researchers-2021-08-25/

From 1 month ago:

After five to six months, the effectiveness of the Pfizer jab at preventing COVID-19 infection in the month after the second dose fell from 88% to 74%, an analysis of data collected in Britain's ZOE COVID study showed.

Various studies have shown different things - no one has shown anything like 20%. If they did, the FDA and CDC would have universally approved 3rd shots. The Israeli data from July is very problematic because almost all the people who had gotten the vaccine 6+ months ago by then (ie, in Dec 2020 and Jan 2021) were age 70+, high-risk, etc. It's why most other agencies haven't relied on that data.

The point is that the vaccines dramatically reduce transmission, hospitalization, and overloading of ICUs and hospitals, which benefits everybody. The more places that require vaccines, the more people get vaccinated (or people stay out of high-transmission zones) - and those people will be recently vaccinated instead of 6+ months ago anyway. This doesn't seem terribly complex.

There's a reason why there's a direct correlation between the states with the biggest outbreaks/hospitalizations and vaccination rates.

 

That sentence is confusing me, is it 5-6 months after the 1st dose and a month after the 2nd dose?

From your link

I believe that's how that might be framed. The UK had a gap of 3 months between vaccinations. I'm not sure if the CDC has data out on vaccine efficacy against infection by the time period of vaccination, I'm trying to find it but just can't at the moment.

I'm defintely not so sure all vaccines dramatically reduce transmission after 6+ months under the Delta variant.

Hospitalization so far yes, my point on this is that our current hospitalization wave has peaked and we are going to get to a point where immunity through previous infection + current vaccinations will likely (hopefully, things can always change) be sufficient in preventing our healthcare systems from being overwhelmed again.

I don't think there is complexity in the value of our vaccines, they obviously have been overwhelmingly positive, of course, we should continue to encourage it for everybody eligible. I do however think there is a great deal of complexity within enforcing vaccine mandates and passports, especially if effectiveness against transmission keeps waning every month for the predominant vaccine in use amongst our population.

 

Mandate help reduce spread, returns us to norm and saves lives.

Vaccines do significantly reduce transmission. Vaccinated are much less likely to be infected (CDC puts it as 5x less likely). You can't spread if you aren't infected. And if you are infected, your "window" of transmission is less if you are vaccinated. Infected to spread isn't a linear relationship. Viral transmission is like "gone viral" behavior. Blocking single points of new chains significantly reduces transmission and vice-versa.

Some 40M are still not vaccinated by choice. IF we are to hold that everyone will eventually be exposed, a small % of them will need to be hospitalized and a % of them will die. That small % of 40M is a huge number. IF we actually have peaked (we have in certain regions and in other regions, it's still ramping up), that's great but as we have seen, there is no guarantee that this is the last peak. We still have the potential that this group will be exposed in a future compressed wave again causing stress on the system and more death. Heck, there could be a new variant spread even faster and could even completely break down vaccine effectiveness against infection. But if vaccines still remain protective against severe illness and death, vaccinated would be ok as a group. A much bigger % of the unvaccinated wouldn't be though - and if this group overwhelm the system, everyone that needs care would be at risk.

 

The science will change and they will need a booster before every road trip. Vax mandates for young elite athletes are silly.

 

Only for road trip? Jeez, what kind of cool science is that?

 

I mean this is where it keeps coming back to

Isn't a 5x reduction 80% efficacy? If that was truly the efficacy then I'd completely agree. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what a reduction means in regards to efficacy though someone would have to explain it to me, slowly.

On the other hand, if the Phizer vaccine efficacy against infection after 6 months is below 20%(and continuously falling), I'm going to have to disagree that it should be considered a "significant" reduction.

The NBA's program eliminates testing for the vaccinated (while requiring frequent testing for non-vaccinated). I don't see the point of that when the goal is reduced transmission IF efficacy against infection for the predominant vaccine in this country is below 20% after just 6 months (without the mandates being updated to include boosters or treat Phizer differently from Moderna).

 

No, that was based on real world data by vaccination status collected by the CDC.

I'm not sure where the 20% came from.

The truth is transmissibility isn't just a function of the vaccine. It's also a function of the environment. If you study transmissibility in a jail, I bet you the effective number is very low. If you study tranmissibility in open door environment, it's very high. In that way, you can argue the vaccine aren't effective at all against transmission.. but in the real world, we study tranmissibility in a mixture of environment that people live in.

 

Below 20% is Israeli state data from July.

I am trying for the life of me to find up-to-date CDC info but I can't. This article on transmissibility in the US in July is hard for me to wrap my head around thinking about all the possible compounding factors.

The closest thing I'm seeing is CDC saying Phizer's efficacy is now down to 77% protection against hospitalization, and a study saying Phizer is down to 53% protection against infection after 4 or more months.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/waning-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy/

It's clear Phizer's efficacy against infection is falling off sharply months after vaccination, the efficacy is even falling significantly on protection against hospitalization but thankfully it's still relatively very effective, and the booster shots should be really helping the age group that is affected the most.