I know this thread is likely to get heated and I apologize ahead of time if this thread comes off as biased but I think one of the biggest problems with Palestinian – Israeli conflict is the failure of each side to fully consider each sides position. It often seems easier to fall into simplistic depictions of the other side as being evil and committing evil and to hold up your own sides pain without knowing or even caring about the pain of the other side. This is the essence of the cycle of violence that both sides perpetuate violence in the name of vengeance for the wrongs that they do to each other. What really got me thinking was this comment by an Israeli poster in the Israeli Insanity thread that stated this: I find this view troubling coming from an Israeli is since among the founders of Israel were people who under any definition of “terrorists” were terrorists. The most notable example is the Lehi Group, AKA Stern Gang, who committed several acts of terrorism against the British, the Arabs and even against the UN. Avraham Stern who founded the group adopted the attitude of by any means necessary to defeat the British and to protect Jews. He believed that negotiation and accommodation with the British was useless and the only way to guarantee the creation of a Jewish state was to fight. He wrote: “Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all. [9]” From “He Khazit” The Lehi Underground Newspaper http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group) The Lehi Group ended up being celebrated in Israel and some of its members became defense ministers and prime ministers. So terrorism is something that even the founders of Israel engaged in and justified as Hamas, the PLO and Hezbollah have under the banner of political liberation from a ruthless oppressor. Such a view though shouldn’t be surprising and the norm for any liberation struggle is to have radicals who fight by any means necessary. Even during the US Revolution we had our own Benjamin Martin who was considered a terrorist by 18th Century and today’s standards. The problem is when we forget and fail to understand what it means to be an oppressed people. Why a group like Hamas exists and why a desperate oppressed people would support a group like Hamas. My own opinion is only by understanding that practically anyone, even well educated Westerners, when faced with a desperate struggle can themselves become terrorists is how peace can be achieved. What this means is not focusing so intently on the actions of the radicals but looking past to what drives them. Terrorism isn’t a cause but a means and once the causes can be addressed the radicals will lose their power. Yitzhak Rabin understood this when he spoke of the “Peace of the brave.” That can only begin though by recognizing a common humanity even when that humanity is why some one turns to terrorism.
I think the main problem is that when the parties come close to a peaceful arrangements the radicals purposely scuttle those efforts with attacks on one side or the other. I think that goes to a practice consideration rather than a philosophical one (dehumanization).
excellent thread the problem here is americans already believe the worst about islam and muslims and they already made up there mind that islam preaches terrorism and terrorism is exclusive to muslims as if muslims invented it or only ones using it for there own causes its political expediency and nothing more for all people involved. u denounce one side to support ur agenda. mind u there are STILL jewish terrorists attacking and killing palestinians today on purpose and that is settlers in west bank. go read the news urself to see how jewish terrorism is still practiced against palestinians today its just bias nothing more, people will side with people they like more thats why violence will continue and no justice will be achieved for anyone palestinian or israeli. people want only one side to stop as if the other has no responsibilities or no role to play and is only innocent victim. people forget that the peaceful abbas got NOTHING back from israel for his peacfulness and nothing but expanded settlements and settler terrorism for his troubles and still continued occupation of his land radicals are radicals for a reason. for every extreme action there is extreme reaction
And why do you think Americans feel that way about Islam? Why should Americans trust Muslims completely when all you see is hateful protests screaming "Death to America."? I am not saying that Islam preaches terrorism... I'm just saying it's a cause and effect. There are some pretty ignorant people in America who can't differentiate between a normal, law-abiding citizen who happens to be arab/muslim and somebody who wants to destroy anything in the name of Allah. The failure of moderate muslims to scream louder than their extremist versions is a big reason why we see so much hate towards muslims in America. It was only 7 years ago... On the flip side, the failure of moderate jews being able to stop ultra-orthodox pro-expansionist jews from pushing their agenda into the west bank has been a huge catalyst in creating the hatred. Jewish terrorism....? Are you talking about Israeli's or are you talking about all jews? It has been a common theme here that being Anti-Israel is not the same as being Anti-Jewish. You are completely throwing this out the window with these statements. If you go to the "Israel Insanity" thread, you can see the video of an Arab girl screaming to put jews back in the oven at a protest in Florida. Agreed that violence solves nothing. However, military action has to be taken if rockets are being shot at civilians because it's an act of war. The question remains on how much restraint Israel has attempted at causing the least amount of civilian casualties. Do you consider your views radical for one side only? How would you feel if you were an IDF soldier from a town that is being bombarded with rocket fire? I think it's time we started putting ourselves in the other side's shoes.
You lost me there. How is that an act of war? It's a crime, no doubt. But at what point does a crime become an act of war? And even granting that, who says that "an act of war" must be reciprocated with military action? That's precisely the same argument that Palestinians would use to justify attacks on Israel. The crucial difference being that they don't have the same sophisticated weaponry or targeting systems, so they resort to launching crude rockets at civilian targets. You think Israel has to respond when its civilians are being shot at. What do you think is going on in the Palestinian's minds when thousands of their civilians are being shot at by Israeli weaponry? They want to respond with violence as well. That's justice, they'll say. It's the same twisted logic on both sides.
I think the extremists are usually the loudest for any group. When Americans see a loud mouth extremist evangelical on TV talking about how America deserved 9/11 because of our tolerance towards gays, we're able to recognize that it's just one idiot among many good people. But when it's a Muslim extremist, most Americans just assume that he's typical because Muslims are "different" from most Americans.
wtf? this statement: Is just plain goofy. It's audaciously exaggerated, stereotyping, and generalized. Thus my ****ty little retort. And this statement: Is just more of the same.
why can the president of Iran aka Bucho, the character from desperado, have a good relationship with the president of bolivia? Evo Morales is a better man and human than any U.S president not named lincoln. why? I know that we latin americans are charming and all, but at the same time, bolivia has not attempted to promote democracy and bring justice to the resources in the middle east. It's only death to america because they're basically the only ones occupying, sorry, carrying out the will of god on foreign soil. It would be death to the bolsheviks, brits, there is no discrimination....
This gets down to what Rabin meant by "the peace of the brave." Rabin understood that there would be extremism on both sides that would attempt to derail the peace process but it was important to not allow them to. To do that terrorism would have to be tolerated with the understanding that eventually the impetus for it would dry up as both Israelis and Palestinians learned to live together and peacefully develop. My own opinion is that Rabin was right and the only solution to the current situation would be rather than to militarily crack down on Gaza would've been to allow economic development in Gaza to the point where the people of Gaza are less desperate and willing to listen to moderates than turn towards the extremists. This would mean that Israel would have to tolerate rocket attacks and attempts by Hamas to try to tunnel into Israel. While these are undeniable threats but by reducing the misery of the Gazans Hamas will find that there support is undercut since they don't have an external antagonizer to blame. Obviously a course like that is very controversial which is why Rabin was assasinated by one of his own people but in my opinion there has been no other Israeli leader that understood the problem so clearly and had the moral courage to act on it.
I took your first response to mean that you believed the stereotype of all Muslims as terrorists or supporters of terrorists was justified. If not, then I apologize for calling you a jerk.
THis is why I started this thread though. We as Americans and westerners are caught up in our pain while for the most part unable to understand the pain of those we consider our enemies. We look at images of mobs screaming "DEATH TO AMERICA" without understanding why they might feel that way. My point is that almost anyone becomes desperate enough they will turn to terrorism and extremism yet we look at terrorism as being a cause unto itself. As though Hamas was like the Joker in the Dark Knight who want to just see the World burn. Its that sort of view that gets up caught up in the idea that we have to fight terrorism primarily through the military and through punitive measures. That strategy just fuels the extremists. I agree this applies to both sides it is wrong for Arabs to say such hateful things about Jews but my question is if you hear someone say something like that what is your response to it? Should you yell at that Arab girl that Arabs deserve to die? Should you go up and slap her in the face? Hate feeds off of hate. This is the practical problem of how do you achieve the peace of the brave. Here you have to consider the assymetric nature of the conflict. Hamas' rockets are a threat but not an existential threat. Early on in the conflict I agreed that Israel had to do something to directly confront them but now I'm not so certain. Given the massive firepower that Israel has and how dense Gaza is I don't think there is anyway of avoiding civillian casualties. In my opinion Israel either has to figure out a way to move their civillians further away from Gaza or figure out a way to take out the launchers short of what we are seeing now. Of course the one alternative that Israel turned down was actually negotiating with Hamas. When Hamas won the elections they offered negotiations as part of a Palestinian coalition with Israel which Israel turned down. I don't know if its too late to do that now and I don't know if there is anyway of taking out the launchers without civillian casualties. I do believe that the current strategy isn't going to work on Israel's part. It would be terrible and its understandable that Israelis are striking back but I don't think that is the way to create peace. I can't speak for any other poster but I most definately don't think the Israelis are evil or cruel. Israelis are scared and angry just as anyone else would be under the same situation but the Palestinians are scared and angry too. Agreed.
Good thread, rocketsjudoka. However, some points of clarification: Benjamin Martin from The Patriot is a made up character. He is based heavily on Francis Marion, a guerilla leader, but Marion was no terrorist. He might have committed war crimes, but he never attacked civilians, mostly because he had a huge civilian intelligence network that he worked from. When it is done in an organized fashion with leadership calling for it or a government enabling it by not punishing it. No one says it has to, but it's silly to think that it wouldn't, especially after enough time.
Sorry my mistake. I got the name mixed up with the movie character. That said though he would be considered a terrorists under today's standards as he did attack civillians during the French-Indian war and during the revolution his men were non-uniformed militia engaging in guerilla warfare. They are roughly the similar to the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters we are facing in Afghanistan as far as their military status. Also while Francis Marion might not have specifically done this during the Revolutionary war their were attacks made on the property of Loyalist civillians.
It is not grand conspiracy but it is a direct result of mass ignorance in America. The ignorant individual is much more susceptible to taking otherwise isolated incidents and fitting them into his or her preconceived notions about a particular topic or a group of people. It is not just true of Muslims (they are only the flavor of the day as far as favorite group to hate and berate) but also anyone we have had a less than ideal relationship in the past, or is considered to be 'foreign' and therefore capable of threatening us (e.g. how we continue to stereotype and view Russians and Chinese to this day). The bottom line is it is not grounded in facts. I think that is what God's Son was trying to get to (at least how I read it).
Regardless of certain folks justifying terrorism, there is a reason we should never negotiate with terrorist entities. There is a reason for standard war between armies/governments (or their military wings). We have a responsibility to make sure Hamas is disarmed and their rocket firing capabilities are neutralized. It will only embolden those who wish to do harm to the civilized world if we do not.
no i meant specificlly JEWISH TERRORISM in the west bank with JEWISH SETTLERS terrorizing palestinian farmers and kids and even attacking them on consistent basis for no reason other than to terrorize them. its a documented fact just google settler attacks and u will get hundreds of links. we already know all those settlers are extremists and hated even inside israel in this case its not israeli policy cause israel itself promised to arrest and punish those extremist settler jerks but they never do anything to protect palestinian villagers from there attacks and turn a blind eye to it so yes i meant jewish terrorism in this case cause these settlers going bunkers on defenseless palestinians is not israeli policy its a few fanatic extremists who believe in destroynig palestinians and there lands and livelihood and are holding israel hostage do u dispute this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7451691.stm the extremist jewish settlers and some of there leaders have said before they support killing palestinian civilians. people criticize palestinians for not reigning in hamas but by same token israel has made no serious effort to reign in its extremist settlers cause they are afraid of losing them in elections. only israeli human rights groups have tried to do anything about it
