i posted this in rimrocker's thread, but i figured it deserved its own thread. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16275638/ President Bush acknowledged for the first time yesterday that the United States is not winning the war in Iraq and said he plans to expand the overall size of the "stressed" U.S. armed forces to meet the challenges of a long-term global struggle against terrorists. As he searches for a new strategy for Iraq, Bush has adopted the formula advanced by his top military adviser to describe the situation. "We're not winning, we're not losing," Bush said in an interview with The Washington Post. The assessment was a striking reversal for a president who, days before the November elections, declared, "Absolutely, we're winning." In another turnaround, Bush said he has ordered Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates to develop a plan to increase the troop strength of the Army and Marine Corps, heeding warnings from the Pentagon and Capitol Hill that multiple deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan are stretching the armed forces toward the breaking point. "We need to reset our military," said Bush, whose administration had opposed increasing force levels as recently as this summer. But in a wide-ranging session in the Oval Office, the president said he interpreted the Democratic election victories six weeks ago not as a mandate to bring the U.S. involvement in Iraq to an end but as a call to find new ways to make the mission there succeed. He confirmed that he is considering a short-term surge in troops in Iraq, an option that top generals have resisted out of concern that it would not help. Growing alarm A substantial military expansion will take years and would not be meaningful in the near term in Iraq. But it would begin to address the growing alarm among commanders about the state of the armed forces. Although the president offered no specifics, other U.S. officials said the administration is preparing plans to bolster the nation's permanent active-duty military with as many as 70,000 additional troops. A force structure expansion would accelerate the already-rising costs of war. The administration is drafting a supplemental request for more than $100 billion in additional funds for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, on top of the $70 billion already approved for this fiscal year, according to U.S. officials. That would be over 50 percent more than originally projected for fiscal 2007, making it by far the most costly year since the 2003 invasion. Since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Congress has approved more than $500 billion for terrorism-related operations, including those in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. An additional $100 billion would bring overall expenditures to $600 billion, exceeding those for the Vietnam War, which, adjusted for inflation, cost $549 billion, according to the Congressional Research Service. For all the money, commanders have grown increasingly alarmed about the burden of long deployments and the military's ability to handle a variety of threats around the world simultaneously. Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker, the Army's chief of staff, warned Congress last week that the active-duty Army "will break" under the strain of today's war-zone rotations. Former secretary of state Colin L. Powell, a retired chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on CBS News's "Face the Nation" on Sunday that "the active Army is about broken." Democrats have been calling for additional troops for years. Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) proposed an increase of 40,000 troops during his 2004 campaign against Bush, only to be dismissed by the administration. As recently as June, the Bush administration opposed adding more troops because restructuring "is enabling our military to get more warfighting capability from current end strength. But Bush yesterday had changed his mind. "I'm inclined to believe that we do need to increase our troops -- the Army, the Marines," he said. "And I talked about this to Secretary Gates, and he is going to spend some time talking to the folks in the building, come back with a recommendation to me about how to proceed forward on this idea." ‘Stressed’ military In describing his decision, Bush tied it to the broader struggle against Islamic extremists around the world rather than to Iraq specifically. "It is an accurate reflection that this ideological war we're in is going to last for a while and that we're going to need a military that's capable of being able to sustain our efforts and to help us achieve peace," he said. Bush chose a different term than Powell. "I haven't heard the word 'broken,' " he said, "but I've heard the word, 'stressed.' . . . We need to reset our military. There's no question the military has been used a lot. And the fundamental question is, 'Will Republicans and Democrats be able to work with the administration to assure our military and the American people that we will position our military so that it is ready and able to stay engaged in a long war?' " Democrats pounced on Bush's comments. "I am glad he has realized the need for increasing the size of the armed forces . . . but this is where the Democrats have been for two years," said Rep. Rahm Emanuel (Ill.), chairman of the House Democratic Caucus. Kerry issued a statement calling Bush's move a "pragmatic step needed to deal with the warnings of a broken military," but he noted that he opposes increasing troops in Iraq. Even before news of Bush's interview, Rep. Ike Skelton (D-Mo.), incoming chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, told reporters that the military is "bleeding" and "we have to apply the tourniquet and strengthen the forces." The Army has already temporarily increased its force level from 482,000 active-duty soldiers in 2001 to 507,000 today and soon to 512,000. But the Army wants to make that 30,000-soldier increase permanent and then add between 20,000 and 40,000 more on top of that, according to military and civilian officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Every additional 10,000 soldiers would cost about $1.2 billion a year, according to the Army. Because recruitment and training take time, officials cautioned that any boost would not be felt in a significant way until at least 2008. Bush, who has always said that the United States is headed for victory in Iraq, conceded yesterday what Gates, Powell and most Americans in polls have already concluded. "An interesting construct that General Pace uses is: We're not winning, we're not losing," Bush said, referring to Marine Gen. Peter Pace, the Joint Chiefs chairman, who was spotted near the Oval Office before the interview. "There's been some very positive developments. . . . [But] obviously the real problem we face is the sectarian violence that needs to be dealt with." Asked yesterday about his "absolutely, we're winning" comment at an Oct. 24 news conference, the president recast it as a prediction rather than an assessment. "Yes, that was an indication of my belief we're going to win," he said. Strategy for Iraq Bush said he has not yet made a decision about a new strategy for Iraq and would wait for Gates to return from a trip there to assess the situation. "I need to talk to him when he gets back," Bush said. "I've got more consultations to do with the national security team, which will be consulting with other folks. And I'm going to take my time to make sure that the policy, when it comes out, the American people will see that we . . . have got a new way forward." Among the options under review by the White House is sending 15,000 to 30,000 more troops to Iraq for six to eight months. The idea has the support of important figures such as Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and has been pushed by some inside the White House, but the Joint Chiefs have balked because they think advocates have not adequately defined the mission, according to U.S. officials. The chiefs have warned that a short-term surge could lead to more attacks against U.S. troops, according to the officials, who described the review on the condition of anonymity because it is not complete. Bush would not discuss such ideas in detail but said "all options are viable." While top commanders question the value of a surge, they have begun taking moves that could prepare for one, should Bush order it. Defense officials said yesterday that the U.S. Central Command has made two separate requests to Gates for additional forces in the Middle East, including an Army brigade of about 3,000 troops to be used as a reserve force in Kuwait and a second Navy carrier strike group to move to the Persian Gulf. Gates has yet to approve the moves, which could increase U.S. forces in the region by as many as 10,000 troops, officials said. The previous theater reserve force, the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, was recently moved to Iraq's Anbar province to help quell insurgent violence. Gen. George W. Casey, the U.S. commander in Iraq, has called for the additional brigade -- likely the 2nd Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division -- to be positioned to move into Iraq hotspots if needed. The additional carrier strike group would give Gen. John P. Abizaid, head of the Central Command, more flexibility in a volatile region, said one official. While such a move would certainly send a pointed message to Iran, the official said it would also allow additional strike capabilities in Iraq. Staff writers Robin Wright, Lori Montgomery, Josh White, Ann Scott Tyson, Michael Abramowitz and Walter Pincus contributed to this report. © 2006 The Washington Post Company ---------------------------------------------------- crazy how we went from "absolutely winning" to "not winning, not losing" ( ) in one month.
Abizaid out -- Top general in Mideast to retire Abizaid opposed calls for more troops in Iraq. His departure could clear way for a more aggressive strategy. WASHINGTON — Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, has submitted plans to retire and will leave his post in March, a step likely to make way for a change in military strategy at a time the Bush administration is seeking a new plan for Iraq. Abizaid has been the primary architect of U.S. military strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan since becoming head of the U.S. Central Command more than three years ago. He has strenuously resisted calls to increase troop levels to quell rising violence in Baghdad, arguing it would increase Iraqi dependence on Americans. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...20dec20,0,654506.story?coll=la-home-headlines
This thread title is truly representative of the liberals mindset. When presented with the statement, "We're not winning, we're not losing," all the liberals hear is "We're not winning". Anyone else get sick of them talking down our troops' efforts?
how many troops would you like to see die before we start winning? at least the "liberals" want to see the troops come home, and stop wasting money in a war the "liberals" said was a no win situation in the first place.
How do you win a multi-sided civil war? Sunni's, Kurds, Arab Shia's, Persian allied Shia's, all the tribal subsects, Al Queada and a few warlords; all mixed in and indistiguishable from the general population.
yes, yes.... because $600 BILLION and 3000 DEAD SOLDIERS are perfectly appropriate numbers pertaining to a war that we are neither winning nor losing. *i'll try and keep it civil*
The problem is the statement is presented by the President, who also stated recently "we're absolutely winning". Only someone lacking any ability to critically think for themselves would continue to choose to eat up his words as fact. You, of course, are a perfect example of that type of lemming. You, and people like you who refuse to actually look at reality and supported a lack of change all this time, are responsible for thousands of dead Americans and tens of thousands of dead Iraqis while we pursued a failed strategy that you defended day after day. Continue to pretend & try to deflect all you want - you have no conscience anyway, so it really doesn't matter.
I'm sick of the way Bush ran the whole Iraq war as a campaign event by trying to minimize the impact it had on America. He constantly denied the need for more troops and stifled anyone who said otherwise. Now it's obvious he was wrong. I'm sick of him and others calling anyone questioning their judgement names and accusing them of "giving aid and comfort to the enemy". (Of course, that all changed when Republicans started questioning their "strategy"). I'm sick of a president who, 2 months ago, said we were winning and now says we "aren't winning, aren't losing". I'm sick of an administration who always seems to be about 6 months behind reality. I'm sick of a clueless administration (which had no plan for rebuilding Iraq) that has thrown our good men and women in harm's way without giving them all the tools necessary to win. Ever since the invasion, Bush has tried to insulate the American public from the ugliness of the war by minimizing the impact on the general public. They, and the right-wing talking heads, have blasted the media for not reporting the "good news" in Iraq and overstating the bad. Kind of funny you don't hear that charge any more. I'm also sick of people trying divert attention from the failures of the administration by trying to shift debate to it's critics. People are talking down the troops' efforts. They are talking about Bush putting them in a no-win situation.
No, not in the first place, but rather, "once public opinion turned against the war". Gotta love the liberals' armchair general'ing. Here's the libpigs new motto: When the going gets tough, start declaring defeat and rooting for the enemy.
so no one was against the war in the beginning? 100% of americans were for the war? what do you mean when the going gets tough?.. from day 0 this was a lost cause..
WE'RE TIED!!! YAY!!! Jorge, seriously. We didn't oppose the war until it was unpopular? Are you really a secret liberal? Cause Colbert does it much better. If not, I have to say you are very funny shouting "no cred" all the time and making stuff up as a rule. You know very well that virtually every war opponent on this board opposed the war before it even started and continued to while it was immensely popular. It's not hindsight if it happens beforehand. You also know that virtually all of us that opposed the Iraq war, in which after four years we are apparently tied, supported military action in Afghanistan -- a thing I reminded you of in that thread where you said we had "no cred" since we opposed any military action EVAR just before you went poof. You are awesome.
I've been saying this for over a year. Just bring a sh!tload of troops over there and simply overwhelm them. Then pull some out. If the aggression continues, overwhelm them again. Funny new take from liberals. Are you saying you agree with this strategy? Or are y'all still thinking we should just quit, which would make the entire war worthless, and probably start a new generation of terrorists?
So you think we're "tied"? Unbelieveable. We're in a current stalemate right now. That is why more troops are needed.
Wow, I wish I could catalog the number of things wrong in these two paragraphs, but it would be utterly useless. Suffice it to say - you're wrong in your assumptions and wrong in your conclusions.
It is like i hear mussolini talk, always blaming the people who oppose war when the war is not going as planned.