1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism (prisonplanet.com)

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by jo mama, Sep 30, 2006.

  1. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,603
    Likes Received:
    9,118
    what the hell is happening to our country? :(

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/290906torturebill.htm

    Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism
    Legislation tolls the bell for the day America died, birth of the dictatorship

    Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | September 29 2006

    Buried amongst the untold affronts to the Bill of Rights, the Constitution and the very spirit of America, the torture bill contains a definition of "wrongfully aiding the enemy" which labels all American citizens who breach their "allegiance" to President Bush and the actions of his government as terrorists subject to possible arrest, torture and conviction in front of a military tribunal.

    After five hours of searching through the 80-plus page bill, Alex Jones, who won the 2004 Project Censored award for his analysis of Patriot Act 2, uncovered numerous other provisions and definitions that make the bill appear as almost a mirror image of Hitler's 1933 Enabling Act.

    In section 950j. the bill criminalizes any challenge to the legislation's legality by the Supreme Court or any United States court. Alberto Gonzales has already threatened federal judges to shut up and not question Bush's authority on the torture of detainees.

    "No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."

    The Bush administration is preemptively overriding any challenge to the legislation by the Supreme Court.

    The definition of torture that the legislation cites is US code title 18 section 2340. This is a broad definition of torture and completely lacks the specific clarity of the Geneva Conventions. This definition allows the use of torture that is, "incidental to lawful sanctions." In alliance with the bill's blanket authority for President Bush to define the Geneva Conventions as he sees fit, this legislates the use of torture.

    The media has spun the bill as if it outlaws torture - it only outlaws torture for "enemy combatants," and in fact outlaws the retaliation of any military against the United States as "murder." Those deemed "enemy combatants" are not even allowed to fight back yet the government affords itself every power including the go-ahead to torture.

    Further actions that result in the classification of an individual as a terrorist include the following.

    - Destruction of any property, which is deemed punishable by any means of the military tribunal's choosing.

    - Any violent activity whatsoever if it takes place near a designated protected building, such as a charity building.

    - A change of the definition of "pillaging" which turns all illegal occupation of property and all theft into terrorism. This makes squatters and petty thieves enemy combatants.


    In light of Greg Palast's recent hounding by Homeland Security, after they accused him of potentially giving terrorists key information about U.S. "critical infrastructure" when filming Exxon’s Baton Rouge refinery (clear photos of which were publicly available on Google Maps), sub-section 27 of section 950v. should send chills down the spine of all investigative journalists and even news-gatherers.

    "Any person subject to this chapter who with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign power, collects or attempts to collect information by clandestine means or while acting under false pretenses, for the purpose of conveying such information to an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a military commission under this chapter may direct."

    Subsection 4(b) (26) of section 950v. of HR 6166 - Crimes triable by military commissions - includes the following definition.

    "Any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished as a military commission under this chapter may direct."

    For an individual to hold an allegiance or duty to the United States they need to be a citizen of the United States. Why would a foreign terrorist have any allegiance to the United States to breach in the first place?

    This is another telltale facet that proves the bill applies to U.S. citizens and includes them under the "enemy combatant" designation. We previously cited the comments of Yale law Professor Bruce Ackerman, who wrote in the L.A. Times, "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."

    The New York Times stated that the legislation introduced, "A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted."

    Calling the bill "our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts," the Times goes on to highlight the rubber stamping of torture.

    "Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses."

    Since with this bill, in the aggregate, Bush has declared himself to be above the Constitution and the laws of the United States, the allegiance of American citizens is no longer to the flag or the freedoms for which it stands, but to Bush himself, the self-appointed dictator, and any diversion from that allegiance will mandate arrest, torture and conviction in a military tribunal under the terms of this bill.

    Similar to the UK's Glorification of Terrorism law, which top lawyers have slammed as vague, open to interpretation and a potential weapon for the government to kidnap supposed subversives, the nebulous context of "wrongfully aiding the enemy," could easily be defined to include publicly absolving an accused terrorist of involvement in a terrorist attack.

    That renders the entire 9/11 truth movement an aid to terrorist suspects and subject to military tribunal and torture. In addition, Bush's recently cited National Strategy for Combating Terrorism, which is available on the White House website, labels conspiracy theorists as terrorist recruiters.

    This should leave us with no doubt as to which parties are the target of the government's torture and intimidation campaign.

    Could protesting a war approved by the government and their bootlickers in Congress and the Senate be considered breaching an allegiance to the United States? Could campaigning against the bombing of a target country be considered wrongfully aiding the enemy?

    When the USA PATRIOT act was rushed through at the height of an anthrax scare without any members of Congress even having time to read it, we were assured that it was to fight terrorists and would not be used against the American people.

    Since then a plethora of cases whereby the USA PATRIOT act was used against U.S. citizens emerged, including the internment without trial for over three years of Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was finally released after no evidence of terrorism was uncovered.

    The so-called "compromise" before the bill was passed and the media acclaim of John McCain as some kind of human rights champion is one of the biggest con jobs ever inflicted upon the American people.

    Shortly after the bill was finalized it was spun by Bush security advisor Stephen Hadley as "good news and a good day for the American people." McCain said that it safeguarded "the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions."

    In truth the legislation does the exact opposite, giving Bush carte blanche to "interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions."

    In addition, under the bill, "No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories."

    The bill also allows hearsay evidence (obtained via phony confessions after torture) to be considered by the military tribunal and bars the suspect from even having knowledge of the charges against him - making a case for defense impossible. This is guaranteed to produce 100% conviction rates as you would expect in the dictatorships of Uzbekistan or Zimbabwe and other torture protagonists who are in many cases allied with the Bush administration and provide phony confessions obtained from torture that allow the U.S. government to scare its people with the threat of imaginary Al-Qaeda terror cells waiting to kill them.

    Following the Supreme Court's ruling to previously strike down Bush's shadow penal system, Alberto Gonzales is already out threatening federal judges to shut up and get behind the dictator or face the consequences.

    Gonzales has the sheer gall to attack judges for even considering to "overturn long-standing traditions or policies without proper support in text or precedent," which is exactly what Gonzales, Bush and the rest of the White House criminals are doing themselves by de facto abolishing the Bill of Rights!

    This is a dark day for the United States, the day America died and the b*stard birth of a literal dictatorship.
     
  2. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    that is scary.
     
  3. halfbreed

    halfbreed Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2003
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    26
    ...ahhh. Via the always reputable 'prisonplanet.com.'
     
  4. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,216
    Likes Received:
    15,407
    Meh. It's happened before and didn't work then. The first time they actually try to put it into practice they'll get slapped down.

    It mush be Bush just trying to actualize the fantasy that he will be looked at by history like John Quincy Adams. Adams was a reviled president who through the lens of history is actually fairly well regarded. Bush is a reviled president and history will show him as worse than his contemporaries thought.

    Here are the texts for the two versions of the bill if you would like to locate the supposed errors.
     
    #4 Ottomaton, Sep 30, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2006
  5. across110thstreet

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    12,856
    Likes Received:
    1,614
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,216
    Likes Received:
    15,407
    It is not as clear as the title indicates, granted, but if you bothered to read the article you can understand how a reasonable interpretation of these laws could be made that would qualify for the hyperbole of the title.

    [rquoter]
    Sec. 950v. Crimes triable by military commissions

    (b) Offenses- The following offenses shall be triable by military commission under this chapter at any time without limitation:

    (26) WRONGFULLY AIDING THE ENEMY- Any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished as a military commission under this chapter may direct.

    [/rquoter]

    This would mean nothing but for the rhetoric used by the members of government who voted on and who will be executing this bill. How many times do you remember someone say that 'voting for John Kerry is aiding the Terrorists' or the Partnership for a Drug-free America adds where smoking a joint is aiding the terrorists’. I’m sure the examples go on and on but you get what I’m saying.

    But beyond this, the bill goes to great pains to state that no court beyond the Supreme Court in the United States has jurisdiction over these laws. Of course the Supreme Court will rule this very clause as unconstitutional, but if implemented as described once anyone is charged as 'wrongfully aiding the enemy' they are in violation and are under sent to the jurisdiction of military tribunals and are out of bounds for judicial review by civil courts failing a final appeal to the Supreme Court.

    Considering the myriad examples of 'homeland security' and the Patriot Act being used to prosecute people that are in no way terrorists, the idea that you are simply declared as 'aiding the enemy' and then fall off the map of all civil protections for all time and are at the sole mercy of secret military tribunals frightens the hell out of me.
     
  7. canoner2002

    canoner2002 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Messages:
    4,069
    Likes Received:
    1
    The legal system of this country is getting more and more like one of the 3rd world countries.

    I think it is a joke the congress issues annual human right reports on other countries while it is a big mess back home.
     
  8. crums17

    crums17 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1
    That article is misleading and deceptive. I don't care what side you are on, this isn't worth reading.

    It really bothers me because there are some serious issues at risk with this bill. Crazy sources like this detract for the debate and steal a portion of credibility for whichever side they are arguing.
     
  9. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    3,389
    Not really, I've actually had to read direct portions of the legislation for a class. The language of this bill is seriously cartoonish. The amount of legal precision and specificity that is standard in normal legislation doesn't exist in this. It outlines specific limitations but then delegates authority to the president in terms of actually interpreting and enforcing the legislation.

    No it doesn't say that anyone who opposes Bush is a terrorist or can get detained but the legal language is so broad that one could legitimately be accused of that. And if one isnt a citizen, then you've got no habeas corpus rights on top of that so there's no real way to challenge your detention.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    129,444
    Likes Received:
    40,019
    Can't the law be challenged in the courts as unconstitutional? And therefore shot down?

    You know...checks and balances and all???

    DD
     
  11. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,051
    So Colin Powell is Henry Clay?

    I think historians indictment will be harsher upon the American electorate than on Bush, a two termer. JQA stole that election, but he didn't get re-elected.
     
  12. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    3,389
    Its terrible strategy to rely on the courts. For example, I think minorities rely way too much on the courts as a political strategy and should focus more on local and state legislatures for advancement of rights.

    The Supreme Court is slow, conservative, and a last resort. There are all sorts of problems with this law and the courts will eventually strike down parts of the law but there are still serious problems to deal with.

    Also, this law has some built in obstacles. For example, it has essentially excluded the courts from the process and conferred authority over detainees to the new military commissions, making it much more difficult to get through to a court trial. It almost will have to take an American citizen who is detained to file a writ of habeas corpus with a court. Non-citizens could easily be rejected by local courts and sent to commissions. Either that, or hope you get lucky with some ultra liberal local court that decides to give a hearing anyway in spite of the fact that the law prohibits them from doing so.

    God this legal mumbo-jumbo really ticks me off.
     
  13. crums17

    crums17 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    1
    My argument was against the quoted article, not against criticism of the bill.
     
  14. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,603
    Likes Received:
    9,118
    ahhh, the always typical lack of a response to the article and information contained. :rolleyes:

    care to challenge any of the assertions made?
     
  15. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,603
    Likes Received:
    9,118
    please elaborate. what is misleading and deceptive?
     
  16. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,603
    Likes Received:
    9,118
    the whole point of the new bill is to remove the system of checks and balances that our country was founded on and give the executive unlimited power. cheney and gonzales have argued that during war the balance of power should shift to the executive.

    if the presidents former legal council, john yoo is going to tell us that the president has the authority to have a childs testicles crushed infront of his parents than basically what he is saying is that the president has the authority to do whatever he wants - dictatorial powers.
     
  17. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,603
    Likes Received:
    9,118
    he had some bold ideas, but if you cant get your agenda thru congress i dont know how sucessful you can be. but i guess its not all his fault, as congress really had his nutz in a vice.

    however, he is probably the greatest secretary of state this country has ever had.

    POINTLESS TRIVIA -
    Q: who are the only two presidents to not come to their successors inauguration?

    A: john adams and john quincy adams. sore loosers - like father, like son. :D
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,216
    Likes Received:
    15,407
    I'm embarrassed to admit it but I was thinking of John Adams when I wrote, not John Quincy Adams. Adams was the midget intellectual that everybody hated and who was the driving force behind the Alien & Sedition Acts, but as you say, like father like son. 'Q' wasn't too different from his father, and unlike ‘W’ he probably did better his father.
     
  19. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    Much like those of us in the States, I bet the British don't even know Blair is a dictator either!!! :eek:

    The banning of transfats in NYC is more of a threat to our civil liberties than this legislation. The SC probably won't even review that! The SC will take care of the most offending parts and a new administration and/or legislative branch will move the pendulum back.
     
  20. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Ahh yes. Habeas Corpus. So much less important to me than the ability to eat man-made fatty poisons.

    :rolleyes:
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now