What would your list be? Because here would be mine and I apologize to some of you Rocket fans because Hakeem will not be as high as I think you guys want him to be. 1. Kareem - This guy was on another level offensively against the greatest centers to ever play. When he was playing for the Bucks he pretty much had the mobility that Hakeem Olajuwon had and he was 7'2 as well. It's almost like combining a Yao Ming with a Hakeem Olajuwon. Defensively he was no slouch what so ever, named to many all-defensive teams in his life. Lost a step in athletic ability and mobility down in LA but was still an extremely dominant scorer and rebounder. He also dominated in the golden era of basketball which is exactly why he is ahead of Russell for me. Kareem had excellent passing ability and amazing skills at scoring. Some still argue Kareem would be the leader shot blocker of all-time if they had counted blocks for his first 2 years in the league. 2. Russell - Q:What should be the primary responsibility of a center? A: Defense, controlling the flow of offense and defense in the paint. Rebounding, blocking shots, forcing team to stay out of the lane, win games. Bill Russell did all of this. Yes, we all know he wasn't a great shooter. Nobody was back then. Dolph Schayes shot below 40% fourteen times in his fifteen year career, and he's in the hall of fame. Russell's presence forced teams to rethink their game plan. He blocked shots the right way, the way that ignites the fast break, where he was one of the master big men at such. I have never really understood why he gets brushed under the rug so often. His height? Then why is he still #2 all time in rebounds, and probably will be for a long while because nobody can approach 20k in boards? His shooting? You win me more rings than fingers, and help most of your roster have HOF careers, you can shoot as mediocre as you want. What more should he have done, exactly? He won personal accolades, team accolades, really, what more should he have done? Most dominant ever? Maybe not in critics eyes because Wilt averaged 28 points and 28 rebounds against him, but Bill Russell won games. Won championships. More than Shaq & Kareem combined. 3. Wilt - 50 PPG in one season? Way too dominant on offense and defense, probably and easily the most athletic center to ever play the game of basketball. You can argue Hakeem is greater than this man, but his stats are too dominant to be ignored. 4. Hakeem - One of the most complete players to ever play the game of basketball. Very hard to tell whether he was better offensively or defensively. Was not as dominant offensively as the guys above aside from Russell. Hakeem was clearly the most skilled center of all-time though. 5. Shaq - Possibly the most dominant center to ever play the game of basketball. However, his lack of mobility especially in the defensive end hurts him because the players above were one of the greatest defensive centers of all-time.
1. Wilt 2. Kareem 3. Hakeem 4. Shaq 5. Russell -------------------------- That should piss enough people off... You kind of answered your own question. You said "nobody could shoot back then". My reasoning is, there have been centers that can shoot since. I don't care what era you're in - if you can shoot, you can shoot. Those centers can do things Russell can't. Russell was one hell of a defensive center.... but.... he never really consistently stopped Wilt head-to-head. So now you have a guy that really wasn't awesome offensively and known for his defense that can't stop Wilt. Hello. Sure you can throw in all the rings, but Russell didn't win those alone. BTW, Wilt was just ridiculous. A 7' center leading the league in assists because he thought he'd try it? Good grief. He was a freak of nature.
You are vastly underrating Mr. Bill Russell. Here's the thing with him. People didn't realize his impact on the Boston Celtics. Celtics didn't have trouble scoring. That wasn't the problem. They couldn't defend well and couldn't rebound well. That is what prevented them from winning titles, UNTIL, Russell came along. His defense....his team mentality, is what sent the Celtics into another level. I also believe Russell had said that he was a better offensive player than defensive player as well. People take stuff like his ability to pass for granted. Bill Russell is easily one of the greatest if not THE GREATEST teammate of all-time. Russell was a very clever man something I still haven't seen to this day of the a big man he was too smart for a lot of guys. There were two things he had over everyone else and that was smarts and defense. He really knew what guys were going to do before they even did them that is just honestly how much filmed he studied. You are not going to do two of the same moves on him and get away with it, because he'll find a way to stop it the next time you try it. Wilt was physically stronger than everybody else not named Shaq and even that's debatable and with Russell as my old man used to love to say you are playing against someone that is not human. The man just never made mistakes out there, defensively mistakes that is.
Thats fine and all about Russell, but if I had to build a team around a center in this era, I'd go with Hakeem Kareem Shaq Wilt Russell
This is always the defense I hear, but here's the problem with that : if they don't need you to score, I can understand you not scoring. Fair enough. But his FG% tells me that when asked to score, he could not do so efficiently. By saying everybody's FG% sucked back then, that's a crutch. Greatness transcends "everybody else". Wilt did that. The rest of what you said, I don't disagree with. Russell was a great player, but I come back to this : if you are comparing the two, and I concede the fact that Russell didn't score because they didn't need him to, he must still be the great defender you say he is when facing Wilt, correct? Then he fails when playing against Wilt because Wilt destroyed him in head-to-head matchups. Both were great players, I just would take Wilt over Russell and I think Russell's greatness is magnified by his rings (which it should be, but I sometimes think it's overmagnified).
but yet he couldnt stop wilt in the least. it doesnt really make sense. what would have happened if you put wilt on those celtic teams?
I think you have got it. The Mount Rushmore of Centers, I don't think you can choose anyone as #1, because I believe that if they all played each other at their best over a given period of time...they would be about even. Kareem - Wilt - Russell - Shaq - Hakeem Everybody else
But the problem I see this argument is the same problem the argument for Yao being better than Dwight because Yao beats Dwight head to head. I have never seen Wilt and Russel play, so I don't know how good a defender Russel was. Wilt may indeed be the better player, but just because Russel can't defend one particular guy doesn't mean his defense wasn't great. It is the same reason you can't say Dwight's defensive value isn't great because he can't guard Yao.
You always hear excuses that Russell's greatness should be downplayed because he played with so many HOFers. The problem is back then EVERYONE played with a number of HOFers because of the fewer number of teams. For comparison purposes, Russell played with 9 while Wilt played with 8. As for his legacy, Russell won 11 in 13 and 5 MVPs. It's that last tidbit that people always seem to overlook as you see the Robert Horry references. Remember Russell won just as many MVPs as Jordan. And also, Last time I checked Russell actually made Wilt's life miserable on the court, hence what I explained about how smart Russell was. Wilt had the dominant stats, but Russell came up with the most important stat of all called the win. Russell also has the greatest record in Game 7's.
IMO, championships and awards earned in the modern era are more impressive than in Russell's era b/c the competition is better in every aspect of the game.
Russell and Wilt always faced off in the playoffs and Russell would always get the better end of it. Right now, we all know Yao Ming owns Dwight Howard. It would be a different story if they faced each other in the playoffs.
Bill Russell was a great center for his time, but he's one of the most overrated players in NBA history. If he wasn't a Celtic, he wouldn't be in this conversation.
He won 2 ncaa championships and 11 NBA ones. The year after he left his team dropped from 48 to 34 winds. He played against wilt and his team won many of those games.
You'd have to put into perspective that Hakeem wouldn't have been developed the same way in that era then he would have in the 1980s which might have made Hakeem a less dominate player.
Word...I have a hard time believing players like Larry Bird would be as good as they were in the 90's and 2000's as he was in the early 80's. Why? Because the game is based so much on a lot of athleticism. Larry would have been good but not nearly as good. I don't mean to bring race into this but how come there are not as many white players now as there were back then? And do you think Wilt could score 100 points in a game if he was in his prime right now? Or Russell could win 11 championships in 13 years? Those types of feats are not feesible in this era of basketball. That's why I'd put Hakeem right up there with Chamberlin and Russell...
If you define "greatest" as the most complete and talented center of all-time, it's Hakeem then everyone else. None of the other 4 in that top 5 had the all-around game that Hakeem did. Statistics and number of championships are not great for comparison purposes since there are too many external factors to consider beyond the actual abilities of the individual player, e.g., era/quality of competition when you are talking about statisitcs, quality of team/organization when you are talking about championships. In my opinion, the best way to compare the upper echelon of all-time centers is to forget statistics and rings (or at least avoid overmagnifying those things for the aforementioned reasons) and just think about each player's skill set, basketball intelligence, athleticism/agility/mobility, abilities at both ends of the court, etc... and form your own subjective opintion. When I do that, I don't see how any of them compare to Hakeem. Hakeem could do everything all the other guys could do (or pretty close to it), while none of them were close to Hakeem as an overall player. They all fall short in one way or another whether it's agility, ability to dominate both ends of the court, post moves, quickness, getting in passing lanes, etc... I'd say Kareem and Wilt are right behind Hakeem, then Russell and Shaq.
Disagree. First of all, Bird's era wasnt limited only to the early 80's. It spanned that entire decade. And that era included players like Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, etc... Secondly, Larry Bird was incredible. Unlimited range, high release, great court vision, great passing skills, and decent ball handling. Of course black players are generally more athletic than white players. But we're talking about a specific player...not stereotypes. If Nash and Dirk could win MVPs, a prime Bird would dominate. If I were making a team, I would pick a prime Bird over a current Lebron.
Re-read. I never downplayed Russell's defensive prowess. On the contrary, I stated he was a great player. I said as great a defensive player as he was, he could not stop Wilt. In a sense I'm saying that's how great Wilt was - he destroyed the greatest defensive player of his day. The player many claim to be the epitome of defense in his day. Wilt was a better shooter than Russell. Wilt was a better rebounder than Russell. Wilt was a better scorer than Russell. Wilt was a better passer than Russell. Wilt set the rebounding record for a game ON RUSSELL. Wilt averaged nearly 30 ppg ON RUSSELL. Wilt proved he was the best assist man in the league. I think he was 2nd or third in another season. Seriously. Come on. Russell was not a better basketball player than Wilt. Wilt didn't just destroy Russell - he destroyed the league. So it's not like saying "Dwight is a good defensive player but Yao destroys him", it's like saying "Russell was a great defensive player, and Wilt wrecked him, too".
I don't know how many times I've played this over in my head. A matchup of Hakeem vs. Wilt vs. Kareem in their primes. I honestly don't think any of them could stop the others. The best example of this is when Hakeem took on Shaq. Shaq got his numbers and Hakeem got his and they wore each other down and respectone another's game to this day.
