Bottenfield is a bum! He has given up at least 5 runs in his last 2 outings and is just as unreliable as Lima as a SP. The Astros bullpen was horrible today. You can't let a team come back from an 8-3 deficit in the 4th inning to beat you in extra innings! The Astros always seem to pack on the runs early in the ballgame and then become stagnant throughout the remainder of the game. Why is this? Do they get too comfortable? A team on a 4-game winning streak should not let these types of things take place. It is time to bring some of these young arms up from the minors to take some turns in the rotation because the Astros are not getting things done. I am one of the biggest Astros fans out there, but I had to let some steam off after today's debacle of a game. Oh yeah, Bogar doesn't do sh*t the whole time he is an Astro, but he is able to hit a game-winning HR off Dotel in the 10th? Is there something wrong with that picture? Just plain pitiful!!! ------------------ [This message has been edited by countingcrow (edited June 03, 2001).]
It pains me to say this because all my life growing up my Dad would say the Astros were bums who didn't know how to win, basically born losers, I'm starting to believe him They should have traded Bagwell and a couple of the now basically untradable bums they call pitchers and tried to establish a winning attitude with the young pups. I got so tired of hearing Biggio and Bagwell tell how they ran into the best staff in the playoffs every year and make excuses for why they batted a buck twelve in the playoffs...****ing bums. ------------------ I'm worse at what I do best And for this gift I feel blessed [This message has been edited by Summer Song Giver (edited June 03, 2001).]
Darryl Kile, Mike Hampton, Curt Schilling, Randy Johnson, Freddie Garcia, John Halama. All of them good to great major league pitchers...and guess what all former Astros. Just imagine our team with JUST one or two of the above pitchers....say like Kile and Hampton....ah man....Hunsicker puts too much empahsis on offense, and not enough on Pitching. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
Wasn't taht Bogie's first hit of the year ? I wouldn't have given him much right over the plate. He prolly would have chased one. Octavio thinks that the fact he throws 98 makes him unhittable. Wake up call. Every major leaguer can hit a 98 mph fastball. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
Yep, that was Bogar's first hit of the year. The saying goes act like you've been there, and watching Bogar in the dugout he's never been there. ------------------
Give Hunsicker credit. He tried his best with Kile, Hampton, and Johnson, they just didn't want to be here. And as for Garcia and Halama, well, everyone would have said that was a great trade if we had won the championship that year. We didn't, so now everyone rags on him for that move. The truth is that it was a worthwhile risk, and had a good possibility of paying off. It didn't, too bad, we now move on. I remember on the Saturday game that the Fox announcer made a point that the Astros had more hot pitching prospects than any team in the league. We could afford to let those guys go. ------------------ What is daylight savings time? And if we are saving so much of it, who's got it all? - Mike Warnke
Between 1991-1996 Kile was 52 and 58 with a 4.12 ERA (remember, this was in the dome). He had a phenomenal year in 1997 where he won 19 games with a 2.57 ERA. The Astros made an extremely competitive offer but he decided to go to the Rockies. At Colorado, Kile was 21-30 with an ERA around 5.90. Do you think Kile would be any better at Enron Field? Hampton is a great pitcher and it was unfortunate they had to trade him, however, he was determined to test the free agent market. The Mets offered him a huge contract last season and he passed it up. The Astros would most have assuredly lost him due to the vast amount of money the Rockies paid. You can't include Johnson in the list if you also include Halama and Garcia. They were necessary in order to get Johnson. With Seattle, Halama is 29-23 with an ERA of 4.63, again, do you think that ERA would improve at Enron? Garcia appears to be the "one that got away", but the Astros made a bold move to acquire Johnson and you have to give up something to get something. Schilling was the only one that has proven to be a colossal mistake, and that was back in 1992. At the time, Schilling had not shown much in his one year and he was considered the "throw-in" in the Glenn Davis trade. He only pitched for the Astros for one year and they were trying to make him a closer. He was 3-5 with 8 saves and an ERA around 3.80. The most unfortunte aspect was they traded him straight-up for Jason Grimsley. Both the acquiring and trading of Schilling were well before Hunsicker's time. It may have been during the Bill Wood era. Granted, I would rather see any of those pitchers rather than Bottenfield and Lima, but I would rather have had Lima in 1999. For the most part, the Astros are right where we should have expected them to be. Currently hovering around .500 in the midst of the race. If the Cubs had not played out of their heads the last 2 weeks, the Astros would be around 2 games out of first. They have made the move of removing Lima from the rotation. I suspect that Brian Powell or Tony McKnight will be called up shortly to replace Bottenfield. ------------------
The problem, bobrek, is that they were outbid for all 3 pitchers: Kile, Hampton, and Johnson. Yes, their bid for Kile was close, and the bid for Johnson was "competitive" (but just for 2 years I think - I guess they figured that this year he would be washed up). Hampton was reportedly interested in coming back, but he ultimately followed the $$ to Colorado. Kile showed that he was not worth the money in Coors Field, although he is doing well now and would have likely succeeded in the final years of the Dome (maybe preventing the need to trade for Johnson that year). Unit and Hampton have been worth every penny of their new contracts so far. The problem for the Stros is that they expect a hometown discount, or draw a line in the sand saying "we won't pay above this" even when the market ultimately dictates a higher #. That's fine in principal, but you can't lose your best pitcher year in and year out. Eventually, you have to choose the ones that you will pay for, regardless of the price. What happens when Elarton becomes eligible for free agency? Miller and Oswalt will get there eventually, too. It seems like the organization is too chincy to pay for a big name pitcher, and would prefer to hide behind the failures of Drabek and Swindell to justify their bargain-basement approach. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
With Hampton, it's all about who you believe. The 'stros contend that Hampton told them he wasn't coming back, no matter what. With Johnson...we made an incredible offer!! He instead chose to go to the team in his hometown, where his family lived. With Kile...our offer (especially when you figure in state income tax in Colorado) was even money. The fact is, they went to arbitration with Kile and he got his feelings hurt there. The Astros stuck with Kile when many teams would have let him go. He had one good season as an Astro...that's it! The Astros rebounded after he left and ended up with a better record the next year than they had with him. For every Kile out there, there is a cautionary tale. The Astros had a choice about whether or not to lock up Lima...the same people who will criticize them for not locking up Kile (a head case who couldn't put two good seasons together as a 'stro) will be the same ones who now criticize them for giving Lima that money. Baseball is an inexact science, particularly when it comes to pitching. After signing Drabek and Swindell to big money, long term contracts, McLane became weary of making the same mistake twice. Can't say I blame him. This organization has a tremendous amount of young pitching talent...but please spare me the "trade bagwell" tirade. Bagwell is a future hall of famer, and you can bet that we would never have been in the playoffs those years if it weren't for his production. The Astros record in the 90's was fanastic..particulary from 95 on. Jeff Bagwell was a huge reason why....he's the best player in the history of the franchise..a franchise that still doesn't have a hall of famer. ------------------
The problem, bobrek, is that they were outbid for all 3 pitchers: Kile, Hampton, and Johnson. Johnson never had any intention of staying here -- he said that from the start. He listened to the Astros to be polite, but he said while in Seattle that he hoped to pitch for Arizona (hometown thing). Most people say Hampton was traded for non-financial reasons. Clubhouse problems and such -- there are some nasty rumors out there, but regardless, Hampton apparently had zero intention of returning to the Astros, definitely not as long as Dierker was manager. Kile is a different story. That appears to have just been about money. However, with the failed signings of Drabek and Swindell (and now Lima), would you have put your faith in a pitcher that had *one* good year (as did those other failed signings) and was mentally weak most of his career? ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
I'll buy the argument on Johnson to the point where I think that, all other things being equal, he wanted to go home. But he wouldn't have fielded offers from Houston and other cities if he wasn't at least open to the idea of not going to AZ. Kile did have just that 1 good season and arguably the Stros were better off not getting into the bidding war for his services - but they did, and then seemed outraged that he would leave for more money. If they outbid the Rockies, they would have kept him, but they were content to come close (and I know about the taxes, but really in pro sports the salary figure is a way of keeping score, and not about how much actual cash you get per se). I know Hampton didn't like Dierker. I've also heard the rumors that Bagwell almost didn't sign the new deal because Dierk was still here. Frankly, he's on his last legs in Houston, and will be gone if the team doesn't make it to the playoffs (currently 5 games out in the division) and maybe win a series. Given the choice between a new manager and Mike Hampton or keeping Dierker, I would have shown the manager the door. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
I thought Hampton not signing was a money thing, although I don't have any inside info on it. Didn't he say he actually preferred to return to Houston, or something like that, but that the offer wasn't competitive? If it was Dierker or Hampton... well, a good starting left-handed pitcher is worth a ton more than a manager, given that even the best managers seem to statistically mean 2-3 games a year, at best. Oh, on the original topic: Now that my campaign to start Oswalt has reached a successful conclusion, I'm now in favor of replacing Bottenfield with Mcknight . ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 04, 2001).]
Kile did have just that 1 good season and arguably the Stros were better off not getting into the bidding war for his services - but they did, and then seemed outraged that he would leave for more money. Yeah, this was odd. I'm guessing it was a PR thing -- slightly underbidding on purpose so they can say "we tried!". Given the choice between a new manager and Mike Hampton or keeping Dierker, I would have shown the manager the door. If it happened behind closed doors, I could see it working. However, there were rumors floating around in public, and I think it would have looked bad for a team to get rid of their manager to sign a free agent -- especially a manager that won 3 titles in 4 years. Sort of like the "inmates running the asylum" argument. Hampton also had some crappy things to say about the Astros when he left, so there might have been some bad blood. For example, he talked alot about a "commitment to winning" and said that with the Mets, he finally was on a team committed to winning. Stuff like that might have pissed off the wrong people in the Astros organization. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
The Astros are a horrible horrible franchise. As long as we have an owner that won't cough up the cash, this team will suck for many years to come. I was listening to the radio today and it turns out Drayton is actually worth more than the owner from the Rangers. Why the hell can't this guy cough up the money to pay his pitchers? I don't know how anyone can have hope for this team as long as we have that piece of crap owner. If Hunsicker was working for an owner that was willing to cough up the cash to keep his star pitchers, then he'd be mentioned as one of the top GM's in the league every season. I don't understand how anyone can blame him for the loss of Hampton, Kile, and Johnson. It's not his fault his owner chooses not to pay top dollar for the top players. Drayton McLane makes me sick, and he's the reason I don't pay any attention to the Astros. It's a shame some people actually like this guy more than Les Alexander, a real owner thats actually willing to pay anything to have his team become competitive. ------------------ They're loud, they're obnoxious and proud, They are conscious but don't forget that theeeey're your future, These kids are accused for all the violence, You can't even keep them silent, You...thought you had...all the answers... [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited June 04, 2001).]
If you don't like the Astros, don't watch them. I'd hate for you to become ill over a game. You can't compare the salary structures in the NBA and MLB -- they are very different. The NBA has a hard salary cap -- Les has been willing to spend that cap, and not all teams do, but, he hasn't gone beyond it. (And he can't, unless he want's to attempt an illegal contract like some teams have.) Isn't the cap around $38 mil for the 12 roster players? Shanna, ESPN has the Astros payroll listed as 17th, but they are right in the middle of the pack. That "cheapskate" will have a team payroll of $60.382 Million this year, not to mention supporting a farm system. The Yankees, Redsox, and Dodgers are 109-110 Mil, and the Minnesota Twins are the bottom dwellers at $24 million. 60-70 is average. The lack of a salary cap gives MLB a very different set of challenges. They want good players, but they have to weigh that against keeping a healthy franchise. The lack of salary cap protection forces them to reign themselves in -- where NBA teams simply point to the cap and say, we can't support that. As far as the owners -- keep in mind that the sports teams are supposed to be a business, and as a business are notorious for not being money makers. The owners have invested their money in something that will give them much less profit than other ventures -- or even sticking it in a saving account. They shouldn't need to, or be expected to, pour their personal fortunes into the teams. ------------------ Stay Cool...
You guys are way too optimistic for me. We're not comparing car prices here, who cares about the bang for your buck. I want the most bang in the league! My dream is to have Drayton sell off the team to some billionaire that will overpay for every free agent in the league and not give a damn about the money. I want Mark Cuban to own the Astros! I also want a manager that knows what he's doing out there. Dierker's a great guy, but he's not the type of manager that this team needs. I want Felipe Alou! I'd be ecstatic if we actually won a freaking playoff series, but I've lost hope. If it wasn't for that ****ing piece of **** Walt Weiss I'd be a much happier person! When you guys point out our record over the last 5 years or so all I think is we're the most dissapointing franchise in the league. We're the best team to not win anything in the postseason. I strongly believe if we got a big time manager, this team might actually do something in the postseason. Also dc, I don't watch them. I realize what I want from the Astros is pretty much impossible. Them losing doesn't really bother me as much as I make it seem. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited June 04, 2001).]
Band Geek -- the problem is that just because you have one of the highest payrolls, doesn't necessarily mean you're winning. see orioles and dodgers over the last 5 years! As for McLane...this guy came in and made this franchise respectable. We've had a tremendous record. Your expectations are really high. There can only be one World Series champion...predictably, it's been the Yankees and the Braves over and over again playing for that opportunity. Blame the economics of the game, not McLane, for that. You can't expect him to have a payroll that matches the Braves or Yanks when he doesn't have the revenue streams from his ownership of the team that they do. In no way is McLane a cheapskate...that's absurd! The guy absorbed huge losses and is finally getting some return on his investment. It's real easy to spend another man's money, huh??? As for the owner of the Rangers...their net worth is insignificant. The fact is, the Rangers, as an organization, make more money. Hicks owns the network his team plays on, which provides him a huge advantage. It's no superstation, but it's a helluva lot more than Drayton gets from media sources. ------------------
Do you guys think that Drayton may be more willing to spend money in a few years ? Maybe he will have recovered all of his losses by then ? I think he's making a profit right now. Haven, I don't agree with your large-market analogy. I bring up Cleveland and Seattle as teams in middle size markets who are/will be perennial contenders. I think it's a matter of support. I think with Enron Field, Houston could be a large market team. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you." [This message has been edited by gr8-1 (edited June 04, 2001).]
gr8-1: Ooops, you've got me there. I hereby given up trying to figure out baseball markets. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
Hey, consider this argument. Enron Field may turn out to be a blessing for the 'Stros because it may help to foster a "killer" mentality. As Bill Worrell pointed out SEVERAL times yesterday, you can't afford to have a letdown at that park, you have to keep hitting and scoring because no lead is safe at Enron, and that there is a premium on "keeping your foot on their throats" when you play there... OH....who am I foolin', we're talking about the 'Stros here! ------------------
