This is a very, very interesting take. I must have missed MManal's orignal post about Cato + exception for Fizer and Hawkins. Did the capologists mention if that worked? In light of the possibility of losing Cat, Hawkins doesn't sound bad at all. Anyone know how much longer Hawk has left on his contract? It would be great if he only has a year left so we can dump his salary before next year's free agent frenzy ... Fizer in our lineup? Doesn't sound bad at all. ------------------
Thats the whole point. HAwkins only has one year left on his contract. PLus, I think the contracts are close now, but with our trade exception it should work somehow. Its been a long hypothesized trade rumor on this BBS---since the draft basically. ------------------ When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat! [This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited July 21, 2000).]
I wouldn't trade Cato for Fizer & Hawkins. Hakeem might not even play the whole season. We don't know where we'll draft, or who will declare next year. We might get a good center prospect, or not. Freak, you didn't mention Los in your rotation for next year. What do you think will happen with him? ------------------
I wouldn't do that trade and I don't think the Bulls would either. Their gonna go hard after one of the 4 centers in next years draft(Curry, Chandler, Woods, Haywood) and their gonna tank next season. I've also heard that Krause has assured Fizer that he will not be traded. Another reason I don't think they would do the trade is Cato's salary. The Bulls are looking to make a run at Michael Finley, who is from Chicago, next offseason and by trading Hawkins away for Cato that will give them no cap flexibility for next offseason. ------------------ You ain't gotta like me, you just mad cause I tell it how it is, and you tell it how it might be.
How about this idea as a little twist on the idea. We trade Cato + 4.5 mill exception to Chicago for Fizer + Hawkins or future #1 pick. Then we trade Fizer + Walt + Drew to the Clippers for Darius Miles + Nesby + whatever else we can get.The Clipps would have to take Walt in order to get Fizer. We end up getting rid of Cato & Walt's salary slots & after next year, Hawkins salary slot. We get the small forward that RUDY (not the posters) was drooling for & I understand that Nesby ain't to shabby either. This would give us a young running & gunning team. As far as the center position, we ride Dream as far as his back will carry us. We somehow convince Croshere to join us for the 2.25 mill exemption. And next year, we manuever up in the draft to get the center that we want. With all the cap space that we should have, we should be able to be major players in the FA market. However, with the uncertainty of getting any particular FA's, these trades would not leave us in the same boat as Chicago seems to be in this year with all the extra cap space. These trades benefit all 3 teams. This trade could be pulled off as long as the Clipps & Bulls stay mad at each other. The Bulls would end up with: Brand/Cato/Thomas + whoever their guards are. The Clippers would end up with: Fizer/Kandi/Odom/Drew/whoever their other guards are. The Rockets would end up with: Croshere/Dream (for this year)/Miles/Shandon/Francis as starters with Collier/Langhi/Moochie/Hawkins/KT/Los/Nesby. This lineup assumes that Cat leaves us. If Dream can't make it through the whole season (I think he'll make it & go out in style), then Los & Collier will be able to fill in just fine. This'll be a pretty good team for a rebuilding team. What do ya'll think ------------------
Moe -- forgot about Los, that was an oversight. Throw him and Bullard in there too. ------------------ A little bit better than I used to be
Funny that the Bulls feel so strongly about not trading Fizer, but they haven't yet signed him to a contract so he can play in their Rookie Reviews. IT APPEARS THAT THE BULLS ARE CLEARLY LEAVING OPEN THE OPTION TO TRADE FIZER'S DRAFT RIGHTS!!! ------------------
Hell no to trading Fizer to Clippers! If the Rocks trade for Fizer they are going to keep him. I would rather have Fizer anyway. Like the Bulls are going to trade him anyway. ------------------
Any Rocket fan should be rooting for Tim Thomas to sign with the Bulls. This could help us on a couple of different levels. For one, this obviously weakens Milwaukee, which likely gives us a better draft pick next year (Milwaukee pick). Another potentially rather remote way this could help us, is it gives the Bulls a combination of: PF Brand PF Fizer SF/PF Thomas -- with no center to speak of. What would make perfect sense for them in this case? Trading Fizer for Kelvin Cato. If Tim Thomas gets the max, he has to start. That would move Fizer to the bench. A number 4 pick on the bench? Doesn't sound right. Now, looking at MManal's championed deal of Cato + exception for Fizer and Hawkins, the Hawkins part of the trade doesn't look bad at all should Mobley choose to leave. That would leave us with: PF Fizer SF Wizard C Olajuwon G Francis G Anderson -- with Hawkins and Norris backing up the guards (or Mobley as well), Langhi backing up (or starting ahead of) Wiz, and Collier, KT, and Pig being the big men off the bench. We then get 2 very good first round picks the following year. Chicago would of course end up with a frontline of Tim Thomas, Brand, and Cato. This is the only scenario I can think of in which losing Mobley wouldn't kill us. Let's all hope the Bulls can sign Tim Thomas. ------------------ A little bit better than I used to be
Hey Moe, From the posts I've read on this BBS, it seems that someone stated that the Clipps & Nets had some kind of deal worked out ahead of time & that the Bulls got pissed off because they really wanted Miles & took Fizer just to mess up the deal. How else can you explain them taking Fizer, whom they obviously don't need. The Clipps had to take Miles first because they were afraid that he wouldn't slip down to their next pick, but they felt Fizer would because the Bulls didn't (and still don't) need him. The only question that I have about my proposal is, would the Bulls really want Cato? If they do, then I could see these trades playing out with maybe a twist or two. SooneRockStro, I think you missed my point. While you might be on the right path that we couldn't get Fizer. It would only be because the Bulls don't really want Cato. I think that with the right sales pitch, that they could be convinced that the deal would benefit their team greatly. Now by trading Fizer,(true, we may be giving up a future stud PF) we dump Walt's big salary, we get a future stud SF & another forward that could be kept or used next year in a trade package to move up in the draft. We are in a rebuilding phase. Trading Fizer as I proposed would benefit this team more than keeping him. We dump 9-10 mill in salary (less Miles & Nesby's salary), we get a super athlete in Miles that Rudy was drooling over. And I do trust Rudy's eye for talent. If we could pull off these trades, Croshere might think long & hard about playing for the exception. With this lineup, a player like Webber might consider coming here, even if he's already happy where he is, just for the potential that this team would have. And we would have the money to pay him or someone else. You have to take the "I want" out of the equation & look at what's best for the team overall. And most importantly, Never under estimate the Rockets ability to pull off the impossible. Who could've ever predicted that we would get Francis, Clyde, or Barkley? But, we did.(I purposely omitted quitten, because he makes me sick!) ------------------
if the rockets trade cato, who on earth will guard shaq? hakeem's basically done. kt? bwahaha! oh, i get it. it's a tank job for baby shaq next year. now i understand the deliberate flubbing of draft picks. ------------------
We've gone through this Fizer-for-Cato swap a couple of times, and my belief still stands that Chicago wouldn't do the deal (but we would be very lucky if we could pull this off). If the Jerrys wanted a Center so badly (to trade Fizer for Cato) why didn't they just keep Mihm later in the round instead of trading him for Crawford? Even though Cato is a Floyd guy, I can't see the Bulls rating him a a better project than Mihm (who has a very solid offensive game, even though he is as soft as church music). This deal only happens if the Bulls are absolutely desperate to unload Hawkins' salary. ------------------
As someone said a few weeks ago, you don't build your team thinking on how to stop someone else like the Lakers. You build it to make them think how to stop you. And if a big man offensive talent is available that can be a championship level PF for years, you don't pass him up. The Rockets will NEVER tank. They are too good for it and have too much integrity. The deliberate flubbing of draft picks? Please explain. I'll bet a lot of money you're just like so many others here. You look at the color of some people's skin, read some stupid scouting reports after never seeing them play in college, and think you're an expert on them. Newsflash- you're not. You haven't seen them play, and I know you haven't seen them play under Rudy. So until you actually see them play for the Rockets, why don't you shut your mouth about them? ------------------ http://www.saveourcuttino.com
The Cat, One thing that I've noticed in the brief time that I've been posting on this BBS is that there are a lot of people that don't seem to understand the concept of rebuilding a pro team. While I'm no expert, I do realize that it takes time to go through this process. After all, the Rockets are competing against the other NBA teams for FA's & have to work within the CBA, which can quite often be very restrictive. If you're building a business,(which the Rockets are) then you have to do it over a period of time. Not all at once, it just doesn't work that way. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I liked your post, but if we could get Fizer, then trading him to the Clipps in the scenario that I speculated about would probably benefit us better for the long haul. I sometimes get frustrated reading all the postings about how we need all these superstars to win again, when all we need is to build a solid team. If we had nothing but superstar starters, then we probably couldn't afford to have anymore than 5 players on the team. I guess I'm over exaggerating just a bit. ------------------
http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/bull232.html What was all that about Milwaukee being a 20ish pick? toddie-I'd prefer to keep Fizer, just because he's a much needed low post threat, which would be important in any trade of Cato. You have to be star beyond stars to carry a team without a good frontcourt to the Finals and win, Jordan was the rare case, but remember, he had Quitten on his side, who could take some pressure off as 2nd fiddle, and both were among the top 5 defensive players, and possibly the top 2 perimeter defenders. We need players in the front who aren't just stiff throw-ins, which is basically all we have now. Cato may evolve into something more, and the type of center we need, but with him, we'd need a scoring PF, that's athletic enough to run, with a great post up game and toughness, and preferably with a little outside shooting. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
Nike, I don't disagree with what your saying. I just feel that we would be better off in the long run if we could aquire & then trade Fizer per my speculative trade proposal. I'll admit that I've not seen Fizer play, so I don't have any idea how dominating he could be for us. That being said, we have some players that have big salaries that are eating up our cap space & in my opinion, they aren't worth it. I believe that all of us could agree that the Rockets aren't going to be able to compete with the big boys in the next year or two. So keeping Fizer (unless he can become another Tim Duncan) might not get us there as fast. I'm just thinking that we could clear more cap space for next year. After the dust settles, we would have gotten rid of Cato,Walt,Drew, & the 4.5 mill exception & aquired Miles,Nesby,Hawkins, & a boat load of cap space for next year. The beauty of the cap space is, obviously FA's, but we would be in a position to make trades with other teams that are looking to free up cap space & might be willing to part with some quality big men or whatever we might need. This is of course, all speculation. If Cato decides to play all year like he did in preseason & Walt continues shooting lights out like he did at the end of the season, then no way I make the trades. But, I have some doubts as to whether or not they will. ------------------
Couple of things.... First off, if Darius Miles could have been had, Jerry Krause would have pulled it off on draft day. The Clippers and Magic, not Nets, had a deal lined up on draft day to move the 5 and 10 picks for the 3rd pick. The key was that the Magic would take Fizer at 5, Dooling at 10 and swap them for Miles at 3. Krause got mad at this and broke up the deal. He tried to pursue a deal for himself for Miles, but it could not get completed. Once the Clippers loaded up like crazy, adding Richardson, Dooling and Maggete in addition to Miles, that new young core seemed to be happy to play with the Clips. Thus, I dont think Miles is up for trade any longer. I still feel that the Rockets package centered around Cato is better than what Portland has to offer. Jermaine O'Neal is more a PF than a C and does not fit the five position the way that Cato does. Also, Cato and Tim Floyd have that college relationship. This whole situation is eerily similar to the Francis one of last yr. The deal made sense on so many levels, yet all you heard is about the Heat and Pistons pursuing Francis. Then at the last minute, BAM! One misconception I want to clear up. I was reading in one of the threads that the Bulls would not make this deal as Cato's contract would hurt their cap situation not allowing them to sign another key player like Eddie Jones in addition to Tim Thomas. In this deal, the Bulls would lose 1.7 mil salary in Fizer, 4.2 mil in Hawkins for a total of 5.9 mil. They would pick up 5.33 mil in Cato so they actually GAIN almost 600K. Thus, it would not hamper their ability to pursue FAs in any way; it would actually help them a little. Also, yes this deal works on the cap. Cato is a 50% BYC player so the Rockets can take on half of his salary. The Bulls have the cap room to take his entire salary, and the Rockets take 2.65 mil worth of Hawkins contract and eat the remaining amount, about 1.5 mil into the trade exception. Fizer counts 0 in trades but counts 1.7 mil if he is just sitting idle on the Bulls roster. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
